Now, I'm thinking that was pretty much they only way they could think of to ensure kids were doing things themselves.
I know it was a rough transition for my nephew, though, and I don't know that I would have handled it very well either. I'm not sure what would be a better option, though, given how much of a disservice such easy access to a mental crutch is.
Good!
If they want to give kids the chance to develop the skill of managing unstructured time, that could easily be fit into the school day/week in a variety of ways.
In most K-12 schools, there is a lot of time in the day that is used incredibly ineffeciently.
For my personal experience, college was a time management joke after high school, mainly because I didn’t have to spend so much bullshit/wasted time in classes.
> Homework- at home- seemed like such a fundamental part of the schooling experience.
That’s a very privileged stance to take (I usually don’t play the “privilege card”, but it’s appropriate here).
For many/most students, the home is not particularly conducive for doing homework a variety of reasons.
Maybe not for the median HN contributor, many not for the median middle class person in the US, but these groups are not the majority of students.
After we had to move on from there, you'd have thought that moving away from the distraction of a neighborhood full of classmates whose houses I could bike to on a whim (homework done or not) would be helpful, but it turns out that replacing physical afterschool hangouts with AIM chats and early social media was not exactly conducive to the physical and social well-being that supports youth academics.
Yes, having these things straight is a massive privilege. And, even during the worst times, at least I was safe. I think a lot of Americans are clueless. Or, they prefer their kids competing against peers who are at a huge disadvantage. (One guess where the rampant prevalence of imposter syndrome comes from.)
Same here. Junior high and high school especially were the least-flexible, strictest environments I’ve ever been in, including in work life. People (teachers, relatives) telling me things like “this is the best part of your life” and “they have to be tough on you because the real world is so much harder still”—luckily I got a job early in high school and started to get the sense they might all be wildly wrong about that, then went to college and instead of being harder, it was like a fuckin’ vacation. So much more flexible, humane, and chill.
And yeah, 8 hours at school and 2+ hours of homework every night… in hindsight, I have to not think about it too hard or I’ll get angry. I could have learned more putting in literally 1/4 the time, and not been constantly stressed out to a degree I wouldn’t realize until later was extremely unhealthy.
Not just a huge waste of time, but caused harm it took me more than a decade to mostly get over. And I wasn’t even seriously bullied or anything! I was even somewhat popular!
One big frustrating, stressful, unfair experience.
My experience was wildly different. I was what was generally considered a middle-of-the-road high school in a good-to-great school district in Canada (the highest-performing one next to the university was a whole different level). I rarely had much homework other than writing a few essays - which I often printed on my dot-matrix printer (yes, this was in the 80s). I studied half an hour for my highest-level senior chem final and aced it. Maybe studied 1-2 hours for calc, etc. Computer labs were some of the best times - hacking Basic on PETs.
Got to university (computer engineering, just slightly below electrical engineering) and it was brutal. Dropped 25% from high school to 1A semester. Had no study habits, "just wing it" had worked just fine to this point - if anything, it had worked too well. Of course, basically everyone in my class of 80 had the same story: graduated #1 overall in their high school (just like me). Some had way better habits / discipline. We had one student who came back to school 10 years after trying to make it as a studio musician. I once asked him point blank: so, do you do 5 hours of homework a night (because he ALWAYS knew the answer, etc) - he looked at me straightfaced and said "I try to do 6". Eventually, I managed to graduate in the top 1/3 of my class, stay on to get an MASc and have had a ~30 year career in software, so I'm reasonably happy. But I've had a hard time identifying with my kids' experience - high school was a blast for me and super easy. University was not. It's the other way around for them.
You aren't doing your homework when you're trying to not have a panic attack from shouting.
I think this speaks to the parents and the type of home environment that they create. This is one of the major sources of disagreement between the right and the left, where the former (sometimes strongly) feel the parents bear responsibility for the type of environment their kids grow up in while the latter (equally strongly) feel that they can't really help themselves due to external factors (abuse, addiction, sickness, etc.).
Beside factors that body's performance, also consider factors that impact well-meaning parent or caregivers' _presence_ in the home, such economic realities, e.g., parents working multiple jobs, parents with challenging schedules, single parents, lack of community support (e.g., availability of a supportive neighbors or families.)
Maybe their parents have a responsibility to do better, but if the parents are not delivering on their responsibility, should the children bear the consequence?
People who are guided by this see the negative fate of a child as a measure of the parent’s rejection of god’s grace. That’s why you have the weird commitment to pro-life principles, but nearly complete disdain once a child leaves the womb.
People find ways to twist things to fit their self interest.
You view it as time wasted, another might view it as time socializing and self organizing -- primary school is there to teach people first and foremost how to integrate into society and be 'normal' citizens -- if we hyper-optimize it for academics something will be lost.
Your second point… so what
I personally had some teachers apply this 10 or so years ago, and I assume the idea existed prior to them. Though, I'm not sure exactly what age range this would work best with.
From what I can tell, this is mostly a parent-led thing, well supported by overworked teachers who are more than willing to avoid even more work grading out-of-school assignments.
I don't think I've ever seen a school essay back then that wasn't obviously written by a parent, i.e. the ye olde times version of "chatgpt write this for me". I'm of course no exception, even when I wasn't lazy my writers-by-trade folks heavily edited anything I had written as they would have found it shameful for me to present something in school wasn't "well-written".
man. this didn't really exist in my midwest USA public education in the 90s/00s, I felt like I had to work hard for all of my grades and the teachers were actively trying to derail me from my goals. there was never a sense of, this work is an example of "good enough".
it wasn't until college that I had teachers who weren't so adversarial and actually seemed to care about teaching.
IMO getting too worried about this sort of homework “cheating” feels like the wrong way of looking at it. Although, there are lots of processes that accept and reinforce this wrong viewpoint.
For k-12, getting the parent and the student to sit down outside of school and “cheat” by having the parent teach the kid is… victory! You’ve reinforced the idea that learning can happen outside schools.
For college, having students get together and “cheat” by doing their homework together is… victory! You’ve gotten the students to network with their peers. That’s… like, the main value proposition of a university, to some.
The problem is when undue grade weight is put on these processes. It is a hard balance to strike, because you need to offer enough grade to incentivize the stuff, but not enough that it feels unfair to those who go individually.
As far as LLMs go, it offers an alternative to learning to collaborate with other humans. That’s bad, but the fix should be to figure out how to get the students to get back to collaborating with humans.
This is a far too charitable interpretation of the problem. Students who cheat in these circumstances aren’t working together with their peers or LLMs to understand the subject matter.
They’re using the LLM to bypass the learning part completely. Homework problem gets pasted into ChatGPT. Answer is copied and pasted out.
This is analogous to a student who copies a peer’s homework answers without trying to understand them.
This isn’t “learning to collaborate” or networking. It’s cheating.
In practice, it catches up to students at test time. This is the primary problem for my friend who teaches a couple classes at a local community college: Students will turn in LLM work for the assignments and then be completely blindsided when they have to come in and take a test, as if they’ve never seen the material before.
One time he assigned a short essay on a topic they discussed with a generic name. A large number of the submissions were about a completely unrelated thing that shared the generic name. It would not be possible for anyone to accidentally make this mistake if they were actually parsing the LLM output before turning it in. They just see it as an easy button to press to pass the course, until it catches up with them later and they’re too far behind to catch up to people who have been learning as they go.
I don't think they were trying to prevent parents from working with children; I think they were trying to prevent parents doing the homework for children, or the kids farming it out to someone else online, or getting someone else to do it for them, period.
Same with college; it wasn't exactly networking when someone I knew paid someone to do their homework for them.
Right, that's delegating.
One school has been abdicating homework for more in-classroom practice, as homework adds more grading and scheduling load on the teacher for little overall benefit. The core idea behind this is that motivated students will always practice at home, even if they aren't explicitly asked to. Unmotivated students --- usually the majority in a typical classroom --- won't or will do a poor job of it.
Another school of thought is the "flipped" classroom. This approach doubles-down on homework by having teachers prepare a pre-recorded lesson for students to watch while they're home and using the classroom as a space for practice and retention. This increases the student's accountability for their own learning while decreasing the teacher's workload over time if they are teaching the same material for a long time (very high initially, of course).
Thread on the topic: https://old.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1958imi/what_are_...
You mean, it's the only way they can prevent parents from doing anything from throwing a fit about disadvantaging their "disabled, but still very intelligent kid" (that they can't convince to put in any amount of effort) to suing the school outright.
You see, parents want kids to be great, or failures, based on their ego (which can go both ways. Some parents want their kids to be failures, and not a threat to their feelings, some parents want their kids to be the second coming (without any kind of effort on their or the kid's part), and 1/10 just want to know how they can help their kid. One BIG hint I'd give any new teacher is to not comment on a kid's performance to parents before knowing which kind of parents they are, and to help the kid by hiding failure or success to the parents of the 1st or 2nd group)
What was going on with computers was far too interesting, I'd spend 10 hours learning to code or playing around with Linux, go to school the next day with 4 hours of sleep and missed homework. It worked out though, and I wouldn't do things any differently given the chance.
We can just GPT all our busywork assignments and get back to working on our personal research and projects.
I do feel a bit bad for the professors teaching the classes absolutely no one wants to take though (like "Global Issues" or "Gender Studies", the two most hated gen-ed courses at my uni). Everyone does the bare minimum to skate by with a C, so I imagine the professors probably revceive more GPT essays than not.
I would have failed high school if attendance/classwork mattered at the time. I skated by with test scores and homework -- I was too busy chasing sex and drugs during the social hours of adult-age-day-care public schooling.
I tell people that I didn't learn a damn thing until I hit a university, and I mean it. The "all classwork" policy would have ruined me -- hopefully they'd have had the mercy to kick my ass out on my 7th year of high school..
Combined with a complete lack of textbooks, college is going to be quite a surprise!!
Oddly, English teachers tell students to use Grammerly and standardized tests use AI for grading student essays.
For writing assignments, students are given a “prompt”. Never heard it called such in my schooling…
The magic of AI is it amplifies what’s there. Smart or diligent people get better. Dumb and lazy people kick the can down the road.
Always found differences in teaching styles and curriculum interesting as is, but I am curious about how others are balancing the new additional challenges of combating LLMs without making the material significantly more difficult to understand.
He hit a wall because his aspirations hit the limits of his pencil skills. Enter AI. He used an early Google AI (I think it was called Duet) to generate comic style imagery to put in the comic cells.
Proud dad moment - the teacher loved it. The AI image generator takes the skill barrier out and let him focus on the assignment — telling a 300 page story in a couple of dozen comic cells.
While I respect your good intent, I am disappointed to hear this perspective. The increasing burden of homework on children honestly strikes me as the denial of childhood.
I am happy to hear that this is one by-product of the widespread adoption of LLMs. I don't even mind getting rid of phones from the classroom to ensure that school time is productive learning time under these conditions.
Children should absolutely be permitted to live out their childhood. I don't think that time without homework equates to time with electronic brain rot. There is absolutely a middle ground that parents should enforce (like doing chores and engaging in discovery).
Similarly, I think that adolescents can find far more rewarding ways to spend their time outside of homework, whether that's working part-time, participating in volunteer activities, building personal projects or developing soft skills. While there absolutely will be adolescents that spend their time consuming social media and doing nothing productive, it feels problematic to enforce the double standard that teenagers should be required to juggle school, homework, extracurricular activities, basic familial responsibilities, and personal development, all while many adults do nothing productive outside of their work lives and barely meet their own familial responsibilities. Instead of having them do more homework, we should trust them to navigate their time. Parents, mentors, teachers can guide them with a gentle hand.
Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. If a computer is required, it can't connect to the internet.
Caught with a cellphone, you fail the test. Caught twice you fail the class.
The non-story beatings will continue until morale and common sense improve.
High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol
Once he's grown and has a job he will one day realize and be thankful for the teachers that forced him to do the work.
Obviously not true for all students but I don't think it harms anyone inverting it but please point out if I'm wrong!
I've met numerous parents who seem to be offended by the idea that someone would tell their child "You must do this, even if you don't want to" in basically any context. In the past I think such things were said in many contexts where they shouldn't have been, but the pendulum is swinging a bit too far the other way these days.
It's harder for those who have additional accommodations at home, but we could arrange for those accommodations to be made in the school, and those who have accommodations at home are in a better position to advocate for getting what they need than those with rough or busy home lives.
I’m sure they’ll be very proud when their child grows into a half functioning adult that can’t cope with real life.
These type of parents are so shortsighted it literally hurts my brain to interact with them lol.
> I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious.
Of course, the other option is to extend school time.
Here's a good litmus test: if something seems very obvious, you're likely missing some hidden complexity.
It's not a perfect test, but if it's obvious to you and not to the people closer to the problem then there really should be alarm bells going off in your head. That feeling of "this is weird" is your brain telling you "I'm missing something" not "everyone is so dumb" (well... not mutually exclusive)
Homework is the real education time. The lecture is less than half the ingredients. You can't learn without engaging with the material. The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture.
We wrote all graded essays during class. It was great. Nice and timeboxed. When you're done you're done. Also forces you to keep it short enough that the teacher doesn't drown in stuff to grade because how much can you really write by hand in 2 hours?
The most advanced classes I took, including in high school, made us do the reading and initial problem solving at home and then advanced problem solving in class. This was true for math, English and economics. Lectures with application combined.
But that doesn't work if students don't do the reading. Just as lectures only in class doesn't work if students aren't doing the homework. So a compromise is required--it's doing exercises live. Possibly even just one of the problems from last night's homework.
I knew some people doing great at high school due to being forced to study. Then they taste the "freedom" in college and fail hard because no one tells them what to do now.
For example, high school poisoned reading for me. I hated fiction for several years after high school.
So we're just dealing with what (some) students have always done: get someone else to write the report or do the math homework. Or have parents pay a tutor to help. Or use Cliff's Notes instead of reading the book. But now it's trivially easy and free. There are no obstacles to cheating other than knowing it's wrong and self-defeating, and those are things that young people don't really have a well-developed sense about.
One of my coworker's has their kids in a school where if you are caught with a cellphone, on the first offense you are suspended. Apparently it's working well.
This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was.
Especially given how much money there is in "AI".
And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to basic education (like the predatory social+mobile adoption before regulation did previously).
It's an easy win for a journalist.
Look at our political leaders now vs in the 1990s as an example of how poorly educated we are now
100% literacy, but all we read is garbage, and all we write is short and shallow. 100% computer literacy too, if that term means making accounts, clicking on links, scrolling up and down, taking videos of things, and commenting.
The internet has ended up being a massive drain on people's energy, and driven communities apart. Of course, there are exceptions here and there amongst the better educated classes, people who manage to shield themselves from the worst transgressions of the behemoths running the tech infrastructure that dominates people's lives.
And, of course, these exalted internet users then vehemently argue that the internet is great, and people just aren't using it right, like them. And round and round the thing goes, getting worse and worse for most people.
If kids have to learn not to cheat on homework, why the heck don't adults? Is learning over by the time you have a job?
In high school, with so many hours of classes per day, homework should be a small part of the day. There's enough time to get the important parts into the actual classroom. If homework is a very large amount of time, then there should be less homework.
That's 88 days per semester.
Take 8 of those and use them to assess student progress and determine grades in class. That leaves 90% of the school year for learning in class.
Current paradigm:
Education time = time at school + time doing assignments
OP said:
> Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom.
Now I'll be fair, I interpreted "testing and grading" as including homework. Why? Well...
1) exams are already performed (primarily) in the classroom. Everyone is already aware of how supervised settings reduce (but not eliminates) cheating. I'm assuming the OP isn't so disconnected that they are aware of this. I'm assuming they also went to school and had a fairly typical education. I'm also assuming that the OP isn't making the wild assumption that the majority of school teachers and news reporters aren't comatose, so capable of understanding this rather obvious solution.
2) I assumed the OP RTFA
The entire problem that's constantly talked about, including THE ARTICLE, is HOMEWORK. No one is talking about 1) for the aforementioned reasons. *Everyone is talking about homework.* It has been the conversation the entire time. So I restate, if you are evaluating /homework/ in class, then what are we giving up? It really doesn't take a genius to figure out something has to give, right?
When the one that can make Captain Trips bioweapon in a garage comes out, I'll start blaming the technology, at the moment, its the choices made by humans.
Banish tech in schools (including cell phones) (except during comp classes) but allow it at home
Ie in high school only allow paper and pencil/pen
Go back to written exams (handwriting based)
Be lenient on spelling and grammer
Allow homework, digital tutoring AI assistants and AI only when it not primary- ie for homework not in class work
Bring back oral exams (in a limited way)
Encourage study groups in school but don’t allow digital tech in those groups in class or libraries only outside of campus or in computer labs
Give up iPads and Chromebooks and Pearson etc
You'd get a stack of 120 blue books to grade in a week's time a few times a quarter.
The grading was entirely just checking if the student used a set of key words and had a certain length. This was a near universal method across the University for blue book exams.
Honestly, an LLM would be a better grader than most stressed out grad students.
Everyone has been phoning it in for a few centuries now
This is only half correct. Grading by hand isn't an issue. Reading students' handwriting is the issue. Having to read the hurried scribbling of dozens of students is a huge challenge for teachers, who were already struggling grading typed papers on a deadline.
* All of those classes also had lab time (some dedicated, similar to a chemistry class), info on how to get the IDE if you had $ access to a computer at home, and alternatives as well.
Personally, I see more value in pseudo code (written or typed) and sketch type diagrams (analog or digital) than handwriting code. However, it was WILD and amazing to watch the gray-hairs of those days debug your code on paper!
This was early 2000s, Java.
I don't know why people demonize them. If you know the syntax you're asked for, you can write in that language, and if you were asked to write in pseudo-code some algorithms, you should be able without any additional computerize help.
You could write your essay and save it in your classroom shared folder. I don't think this is rocket science.
Phones still pose a problem. But asking for things on a phone and typing it back to a computer would be rather inefficient cheating.
So i really do not wish to see that backtracked. But i could see the internet being declared too destructive.
A computer without internet, a book, and ample time would have worked for me.
It's not like there is a senior engineer who's got mountains of expertise to defer to (like a software team would have). Teachers are likely given directives from their schools and get dumped a bunch of tablets and are told this is "modern" education and to just roll it out.
Anyway, to your point - top-down directives are what change schools. There has been success such as banning smartphones in Ireland & UK recently. Schools taking on the problems and then solving it themselves could go a long way, rather than waiting for government to mandate things.
With 30 kids in a class Im not sure this is possible. Oral exams scale horribly
Everyone has independent work and one by one you are called to the teacher's desk. He would take your book, open it up to a "random" spot and read a couple of sentences and then ask about what is going on in that scene. Hard to bull shit.
This could be modified to be like parent:teacher conferences where appointment slots exist while everyone else is doing something else (lunch, another class, maybe scheduled after hours)
Most western countries I follow are cutting on public education and teachers are miserable. It doesn't sound promising to be honest.
How about be strict on spelling and grammer (sic) to have a GPA that accurately places students in colleges. The days of dunces getting 3.9 GPA and making it into Yale need to end.
My point is that education has to be aligned with the actual world outside.
Everyone uses AI now, for all sorts of tasks. And if they don't now, they will in the next few years. Trying to exclude AI from education is not only pointless, it's doing the kids a disservice: AI is going to be a large part of their future, so it needs to be a large part of their education.
If we follow the implied course of TFA we'd reduce AI use in schools and go back to old-skool teaching methods. Then that cohort of kids would get their first job and on day one they'd be handed an AI and told "this is the job, get on with it". Like with my ex-gf, everything they were taught would be useless because the basic foundation is different.
I know education is not entirely vocational, but if it moves too far from the world of work that everyone actually spends most of their time in, then it gets too theoretical and academic. AI is part of it, education needs to change.
Hard hard hard hard disagree.
Everyone uses a calculator, even to calculate tips at a restaurant, but kids still need to learn arithmetic without a calculator's aid first.
I spent my CS education learning things that I never come across in my practical career, but I would have been done a disservice and be worse at my career if I just practiced what my career was going to be.
> I know education is not entirely vocational, but if it moves too far from the world of work that everyone actually spends most of their time in, then it gets too theoretical and academic.
Again, hard disagree. Most people's jobs go up a ladder where the entry level is not at all like academia, and as you become responsible for larger and larger autonomous units and divisions, etc. your work becomes more and more theoretical and academic, more about experimenting, formulating theses about the world, testing your hypothesis, being flexible as the results come in, etc.
And to achieve that exact goal they need to actually do something with it. Somehow practise some level of skill.
And I don't think using AI does this. Or even allow them to look for things that might exist. Recent example for me was big cookie cutters. Didn't even consider that such things were around. Saw a set on Temu and it clicked. I could get 15cm wide cutter instead of finding some bowl or something...
citation needed
I was rapped across the knuckles by a sadistic primary school teacher for failing to learn my times table fast enough. Everyone said I absolutely needed to learn this because I would not always have access to a calculator. Here I am, literally carrying a calculator with me every second of my life.
I've spent more time and money getting therapy for the shit my teachers did to me trying to teach me the times table than I've saved using it.
One horrible teacher != Negating a useful skill wholesale
https://publichealthpolicyjournal.com/mit-study-finds-artifi...
That a tool is common in the real world is not an excuse to let students outsource the work that is the heart of learning.
And doctors do not "have nurses" in the way that you've said; they're entirely different professions. I'll allow that it's just a poor example of the point you're trying to make.
> That a tool is common in the real world is not an excuse to let students outsource the work that is the heart of learning.
This is, I think, the point: the work is not the heart of the thing. A blacksmith using a power hammer is not less of a blacksmith; the heart of being a blacksmith is not being able to hit a piece of metal really hard. As we are finding out with coding; writing code is not the heart of software development. The grunt work that an AI can do is not the heart of the learning that needs to happen. Guiding an AI to write software is similar to a blacksmith using a power hammer.
I spent the day using an AI to write documents. They're good documents. We need them. I was able to get way more done by using the AI to write them. I don't think this is bad. And if it's not bad for me, why should it be bad for a student?
See, this is exactly the kind of logical fail you get when you don't exercise your critical thinking skill.
The ADA became a thing in the US for a reason after all.
Firms are still hiring paralegals in big numbers, even with all the new AI tools around. the reality is ai can draft or summarize, but it doesn’t replace someone who understands procedure, catches nuance, and keeps a case on track. in practice, lawyers lean on paralegals more than ever.
Is this what The Atlantic has come down to, publishing a complain-y piece by the class president?
EDIT: For anyone struggling with my criticism of the article, I very much agree that there is a problem of AI in education. Her suggestion which is "maybe more oral exams and less essays?" I'm sure has never been considered by teachers around the world rolls eyes.
As for how to tackle this, I think the only solution is accept the fact that AI is going nowhere and integrate it into the class. Show kids in the class how to use AI properly, compare what different AI models say, and compare what they say to what scholars and authors have written, to what kids in the past have written in their essays.
You don't have to fight AI to instill critical thinking in kids. You can embrace it to teach them its limitations.
* We should dismiss the concerns in TFA because the author is... A good and conscientious student? Who is both unpopular and also the class president?
* The students who are outsourcing their thinking, or at least their work, to LLMs, have good reasons for this and the reasons are not addressed in the piece
The first point is at best a pure ad hominem and at worst a full blown assault on conscientiousness and actually doing the work. I think the class president and good student is a better authority than the cheater. I'm very disturbed by the recent trend on HN and the wider world to justify any shortcut taken for personal advancement. We need people to value substance, not just image...
The second point is irrelevant -- we don't have do both-sideism in every piece. But also even if they do have good reasons to cheat, this creates an instant race to the bottom where now everyone must cheat. This is why they do doping checks in professional sports, except this is much higher stakes
I gave no opinions on AI, yet I do think it's very much a problem. This article presents neither good ideas to tackle it, nor an insightful perspective on the problem.
Later in life, when their life is more stable, these same kids will be the first to actually use AI to learn the then necessary concepts properly.
Bad teachers and a bad economy are no reason to let kids outsource all their thinking to a machine when they’re still learning to think themselves.
The lack of imagination in CS is stunning and revolting. Symbols and causality are broken records, chuck them asap and move onto the next idea of what a PC is. It ain't binary.
Do you think we are helping K-12 students by letting AI doing hallucinated thinking for them? What incredible "AI skills" will they be missing out on if we restrict the exposure? How to type things in a text box and adjust your question until you get what you want?
The kind of task is not the same. With a calculator, you are delegating a very specific, bounded, and well-defined task. Being unable to approximate non-integer square roots by hand isn't the same as not knowing what square roots mean or when they are applicable. However with LLMs, people are often (trying to) delegate their executive-function and planning.
Another way to tell that the tasks are qualitatively different is to look at what levels/kinds of errors users will tolerate. A company selling calculators that gave subtly but undeniably-wrong answers 5% of the time would rightfully go bankrupt.
If you want to compare LLMs to something of yesteryear, it's closer to hiring someone to do the work for you: That's always been considered cheating, regardless of how cheaply the accomplice works or how badly they screw up.
Why? Because otherwise they’d have no idea if the answer provided to them is “correct”. As the saying goes, garbage in garbage out. You type the wrong numbers into the calculator ? How would you know the answer is also wrong unless you knew “about” what the answer should be?
I'd compare it to the ability to write and run basic assembly. We did it, and got checked on it, but that was not what we were there for.
Look at some of the SAT math questions:
https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/digital-sat-samp...
The questions are all designed to have a tidy, closed-form answer. A calculator is either marginally helpful or outright cheating.
The problem is that we’re letting kids go to the gym with a forklift, and we need them fit by the time they join adult life.
You do realize those students learn arithmetic in an environment where calculators are not allowed right?
Rather than framing this as destroying education, it should be interpreted as proof that these tasks were always shallow. AI is still much worse than humans at important things, why not focus on those things instead?
The school systems are clearly not keeping up. Any kid who isn't doing project oriented creative work, aided by an LLM as needed, is not preparing for the the world they will likely inherit.
We ended it because it checks not for AI but for professional writing, good grammar and spelling, and professional non-conversational word choice. WHICH ARE THE THINGS WE'RE TEACHING THESE STUDENTS IN OUR CLASSES.
I have to look at a room of mostly out of touch faculty and tell them to be better at their jobs. I have to tell them that they simply cannot do what they've done for the last 30 years (which is only being forced because of AI, but should've been a thing the entire time). I have to, in five minutes, explain pedagogy and modern instructional design.
And I have no idea what to say that won't make this situation worse.
I'm thinking of leading with an explanation of what adaptation and evolution are as concepts. That should go well. I'm pretty excited.
Academic prose is just style transfer. Academia filters pretty heavily for humans that can do this particular kind of style transfer well. Everyone on the college faculty will be 2 standard deviations of good at writing academic prose. That skill is no longer valuable. It is now a cheap commodity measured in flops.
The silver lining is that the content of one's writing is now paramount because the field has been leveled as far as style is concerned.
I decided just to close every door for a complaint. Not sure if it landed but no one said anything.
Arithmetic is automatic, but you still have to learn how to do it, in an environment without a calculator, first.
Memorization has been solved by computers with infinite memory for at least a decade, but learning how to, building the muscle for, and yes even memorizing things that you can just look up online are still valuable in today's world because they work together with the other parts of your mental muscle and complement them.
Like, a set of wheels and a dolly can replace a lot of heavy lifting, but it's still helpful and healthy to lift weights!
Pocket calculators have been available for 50+ years. Would you hire an engineer who couldn't instantly multiply 8 times 7? What about one who couldn't tell you the difference between linear growth and exponential growth? These are examples of skills that need to be learned, even if they're available externally, so that technical and creative work can build on them.
Updated to say what I was trying to say. (Apologies)
What am "I" doing to solve this? For both me and my children.
Taking responsibility for my continuing education, for one. Locate interesting curricula and pursue them.
I just tutored my nephew through his college intro to stats course. Not only are calculators allowed, but they had a course web app so that all they did was select a dataset, select columns from those datasets, and enter some parameters. They were expected to be able to pick the right technique in the app, select the right things, and interpret the results. Because of the time savings, they covered far more techniques than we did in my day because they weren't spending so much time doing arithmetic.
Despite lots of cries about "who will know how to make calculators?", this transition to calculators (and computers) being allowed was unavoidable because that's how these subjects would be applied later on in students' careers. The same is true of AI, so students need to learn to use it effectively (e.g., not blindly accepting AI answers as truth). It will be difficult for the teachers to make their lesson plans deeper, but I think that's where we're headed.
Another lesson we can draw from the adoption of calculators is that not all kids could afford calculators, so schools sometimes needed to provide them. Schools might need to provide access to AI as well. Maybe you are required to use the school's version and it logs every student's usage as the modern version of "show your work"? And it could intentionally spit out bad answers occasionally to test that students are examining the output. There's a lot to figure out, but we can find inspiration in past transitions.
The lesson isn't that we survived calculators, it's that they did dull us, and our general thinking and creativity are about to get likewise dulled. Which is much scarier.
Before calculators, i.e. slide rules, log tables, hand arithmetic: by the time engineers completed their university education most could approximate relevant parameters in their work to +/- 5% or the actual value. Slide rules would give you a result to 3 (rarely 4) significant decimals, but you needed to know the expected result to within half an order of magnitude.
After calculators, many graduate engineers will accept erroneous results from their calculations without noticing orders of magnitude discrepencies.
We constantly hear of spreadsheet errors making their way into critical projects.
With AI the risk is that even currently levels of critical thinking will be eroded.
The amount of college educated people that do not now how to calculate a tip in their head is terrifying.
I can understand not being able to get 17.5% down to the penny. But 10%, 15% or 20% can be calculated in your head faster than I can get my phone out. This level of math is pretty basic.
Its also worth saying that I was never described as a "math person". The number of people that will blindly accept what the calculator tells them is too fucking high.
I have already noticed far too many people using chatGPT as a source. I have a tax attorney friend who got in an argument with an agent at the CRA (Canada Revenue) over whether her interpretation of a rule was correct or whether the chatGPT interpretation was correct. Mind you, she works as a prosecuting attorney so it wasn't adversarial, it was just her saying, "sorry, I'm the legal expert, this interpretation is incorrect, and we will lose if we use this interpretation".
Not being able to organize information, create a synthesis, or express yourself in less-likely-than-a-LLM terms is going to have detrimental effects. I think not only will it lead to insane, horse-blinder level, hyper specialization, but it will flatten entire segments of the human experience.
Are there any examples, i.e. spreadsheet mistakes in engineering projects that wouldn’t have happened if a slide rule was used? This sounds interesting.
I only know about spreadsheet errors in general, e.g. gene symbols being converted to dates[1]. Unless you meant that?
IME when VC says “democratizing” you can substitute “degrading” for the real meaning.
I've seen the same commentary about:
Spellcheck
Typed material
Computer art programs
Calculators
"Spellcheck removes the ability to spell"
"Calculators prevent you from doing math."
"Computer art will destroy real art"
"Typing text will destroy cursive and handwritten".
Same idea, that some form of tech will destroy something we should value.
The younger people at my job have atrocious spelling.
My ability to do mental math is much worse than it was when I was regularly doing math without a calculator.
People who have exclusively learned digital art do not have the muscle memory built up to seamlessly transition to analog art.
Almost everyone I know has awful handwriting.
So the question then is "What is the actual skill that AI tools are replacing?" And if the answer is "thinking," then that should be terrifying.
I did IGCSE/A-levels (International school following the British school system). For IGCSE, around grade 8 (if memory serves), you're allowed the use of calculators, including during all exams. For AS/A Levels (grades 11 and 12), you're also allowed calculators in all subjects that have any kind of mathematics at all, like Physics, Chemistry, Maths etc.
On the front page of the exam papers, you also get a list of all formulae that might be relevant. For physics this will be things like the formula for calculating Force, or all the ones relating to electricity, or gravity etc. Similarly for math, you'll get common formulae for even the simple things that everyone is expected to know like Pythagoras' theorem.
The thing is, the calculators and the formulae were of very little use to you if you didn't know the theory behind it in the first place. This same concept applies for the basics like arithmetic, if you yourself have never done arithmetic without the aid of a calculator, you can plug in all the numbers you want, but you don't have that intuition for what looks roughly right or not and you won't get very far. I still have memories of me punching in some numbers in the calculator, and then being confused by the resulting number, because for years I practiced my mental arithmetic and was at a state where I know that the number just looked different from what I was expecting.
The thing here is that the years studying arithmetic weren't only relevant for just the math class I was doing, it was universally useful whenever I interacted with any numbers, including in other subjects like Physics (where you're often working with incomprehensible numbers that end with an `^11`, so having an intuition for orders of magnitudes really mattered) or Chemistry (similarly except it's ^-11). Even for the less STEM-focused subjects like Business studies, having an intuition for basic Mathematics makes a huge difference.
LLMs/AIs in this context would be replacing all those foundation building years, for basically everything. You as the student relying on AI for everything will take a look at that exam sheet, take a look at that list of formulae and will have absolutely no clue what any of it means, because you haven't practiced any of it yourself. You'll see some number spat out by the calculator and it'll be negative when it should be positive, and the order of magnitude will be ^21 rather than ^11, and you'll lack the foundational knowledge to know intuitively that number is wrong and the answer is wrong. Except this will apply for everything that an LLM can answer, not just numbers.
We already live in a world where people take anything they read online as gospel. People already don't know how to read graphs, and have no intuition for numbers. If something is said in an authoritative-enough tone, many people will just go with it even if the data shows the opposite of what is being said. We now want to introduce hallucination machines and have the future generations be dependent on them and to outsource all their thinking to them? Even though it's hilariously easy to get these systems spitting out absolute nonsense, just in a confident and well-written tone?
> "Spellcheck removes the ability to spell"
This has factually happened. How many people out there do you see that don't know the difference between your and you're, or that constantly mispell [sic] common words? Whether that's something that is important is a different discussion, but it is a truth.
> "Typing text will destroy cursive and handwritten".
This has also objectively happened. Again, whether it's truly important or not is a different topic, but I can use myself as an example, I basically have a child's handwriting because I haven't really written anything since high school. I still have to write from time to time, for example when filling out some gov't forms, and it's a genuine pain in the ass sometimes how terrible my handwriting is.
Now, we are social animals, and we grew to value these thing for their own right. Societies valued strength and bravery, as virtues, but I guess ultimately because having brave strong soldiers made for more food and babies.
So over time, we tamed beasts and built tools, and most of these virtues kind of faded away. In our world of prosperity and machine power on tap, strength and bravery are not really extolled so much anymore. We work out because it makes us healthy and attractive, not because our societies demand this. We're happy to replace the hard work with a prosthetic.
Intelligence all these millenia was the outlier. The thing separating us from the animals. It was so inconceivable that it might be replaced that it is very deeply ingrained in us.
But if suddenly we don't need it? Or at least 95% of the population doesn't? Is it "ok" to lose it, like engineers of today don't rely on strength like blacksmiths used to? Maybe. Maybe it's ok that in 100 years we will all let our brains rot, occasionally doing a crossword as a work out. It feels sad, but maybe only in the way decline of swordsmanship felt to a Napoleonic veteran. The world moved on and we don't care anymore.
We lost so many skills that were once so key: the average person can't farm, can't forage, can't start a fire or ride a horse. And maybe it's ok. Or, who knows, maybe not.
Soldiers do still go through physical training, and this seems to be a closer metaphor than swordsmanship.
Quite scary in its implications for the future.
"Problem-solving" might be dead, but people today seem more skilled in categorizing and comparing things than those in the past (even if they are not particularly good at it yet). Given the quantity and diversity of information and culture that exists, it's necessary. New developments in AI reinforce this with expert-curated data sets.
It's probably either that or ban it and do everything in-person, which might have to be the stopgap solution.
Generative AI is new. Pedagogical research involving them is even newer. Teachers are rarely given resources to meaningfully explore new methods. Expecting teachers to stumble through updated processes to enable students to incorporate generative AI is a mess.
Students are also children. They'll take the path of least resistance if it is available to them. Expecting students to meaningfully incorporate generative AI into their learning process rather than just reaching for "ugh this essay is dumb - chatgpt give me an essay on the use of time skipping in To the Lighthouse."
The situation is a total mess.
These are highschoolers, still learning to write - their output won't be the best. It won't be long at all until AI can write as well as the average (honest, pre-AI) highschooler, if we're not past that point already.
The whole reason that this is an issue is that LLMs have been able to match or beat student output since chatGPT 3.5.
If you can, you have a massive ed-tech startup on your hands.
A quite possible future: you're surrounded by dead-eyed humans with AI implants who mindlessly repeat whatever the chatbot tells them.
By that time it's highly unlikely they'll have any choice in the matter. ComcastMicrosoftDisneyPepsiTacoBell will make all their choices for them, including being their only provider of truth and knowledge.
This is what this article reminded me of. The student writes how her classmates use help from AI as if she cannot decide for herself to do the work on her own if she cares about learning. She writes as if she is devoid of agency.
The Atlantic published a post on reddit about this article, titled "I’m a High Schooler. AI Is Demolishing My Education." [1] And yet, it is the other students that the author primarily focuses on. Why does other students' cheating demolish _her_ education?
[0] - https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1480/pg1480.txt
[1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtificialInteligence/comments/1n7o...
It makes me think of the rampant cheating culture in the PRC. Cheating generally isn't considered immoral, or, it may be, but the attitude is basically "well everyone cheats, so you better do it too or you'll be left behind." University becomes a performance, and all thoughts are turned towards how to present the best in that performance. If you ask someone that buys into this system about the value of, idk, writing a paper so as to learn the material, they'll be very confused. What's the point of learning the material? The only thing that matters is getting the best grade possible. Then you can get the highest paying job possible. That's all that matters.
This is of course not universal, the PRC is a country with a gajillion people in it, but this is what I experienced at university there and when I returned to the USA and was the defacto "PRC student tutor" at my university because of my Mandarin and time spent there. I must have been offered money to write essays for people over fifty times.
So, I can imagine this happening with AI. What does it matter if you learn the material? You use AI to get a good score and then you use AI to do your job anyway so who cares. AI written emails summarized by AI, replies written by AIs, reports generated by AI, sent, summarized by another AI...
This is not particularly worrisome in basic arithmetic, but severely limits history, philosophy, and arts.
The company was tutoring English Literature as one of its subjects.
They were generating English Literature exam problems - for their users - using the ChatGPT web UI.
They would upload the marking spec, and say: "Give me an excerpt from something that might be on this syllabus, and an appropriate question about it".
Naturally, their users - the high school students - were getting, often, hallucinated excerpts from hallucinated works by existing authors.
I think the kids will be fine - it'll be their world, at some point, and that world will look a lot different to now. Maybe that's too optimistic!
I would hope, in that world, LLM literacy amongst adults has increased.
Because I feel really, really bad for all the kids who are beating themselves up about getting badly marked by ChatGPT (I assume) on an imaginary excerpt of an imaginary Wordsworth poem by their functionally imaginary tutor.
It makes me laugh, and reminds me of one of my favourite jokes, about the inflatable boy who - being of a rebellious nature - takes a safety pin to the inflatable school. Chaos ensues. Afterwards, the inflatable boy's inflatable teacher says:
"You've let me down; you've let the school down, but worst of all, you've let yourself down."
I guess I'm suspicious of the linked article. Call me full of hot air, but is it actually a safety pin? Or is it just designed to look really good on an application for an inflatable college?
It's part of the job of education to instill some common culture. (Which common culture varies, but not all that much outside political topics.) For students, questions about that culture are new issues. LLMs have digested a huge amount of existing material on it. LLMs are thus really good at things students are graded upon.
This gives students the impression that LLMs are very smart. Which probably says more about educational practice than LLMs. The big problem is not cheating. It's that the areas schools cover are ones where LLMs are really good.
There's no easy fix for this.
And I think social has showed us that most people are lazy and swayed to the easiest approach.
Ergo, making AI easy to abuse, at the cost of learning, is detrimental to societies as a whole.
Phones shouldn't be in the classroom, and devices used in the classroom shouldn't have any access to AI.
Students shouldn't really have homework anyway so I think it's completely reasonable to just have kids doing work on pen and paper in the class for the most part.
That was one of my frustrations with "prep" school: An artificial sense of urgency that does not, in any way, reflect how one leads a happy, healthy, and successful life; nor does one need a sense of urgency in academics to grow into an adult who makes a positive contribution to society.
> Some students may use these tools to develop their understanding or explore topics more deeply, ... can also be used as a study aid
I think the same can be said about internet searches. Altavista came around when I was in high school; and I lost all motivation to memorize arcane facts. The same can also be said about books and libraries.
Instead, it's important to realize that a lot of topics taught in schools have to do with someone's agenda and opinion about what's important to know, and even political agendas; and then accept that many lessons from school are forgotten.
> Student assessments should be focused on tasks that are not easily delegated to technology: oral exams ... or personalized writing assignments ... Portfolio-based or presentational grading
Those are all time consuming; but they miss a bigger point: What's the real point of grades anyway?
Perhaps its time to focus on quality instead of quantity in education?
If that's what schools are supposed to be, so be it, but I'd like to see that outcome explicitly acknowledged (especially by other posters here) instead of implied.
Teachers can also use them to mark homework.
They are a boon as much as they are a bane.
Especially with math, most LLMs will happy explain to you a "proof" for something that isn't proven or known false.
LLMs can be amazing [^0] as an assistive technology, but using them as a "do it for me" button is just way too easy, so that's how they are de facto used.
I believe it will take about 5-10 years for us to fully comprehend how damaging unplanned remote classrooms and unchecked LLM use in the classroom was. Like heroin, it will be extremely hard to undo our dependence on them by that point. I'm pretty scared for how our students will fare on the global scale in the coming years.
[^0] I strongly believe that 60% of the value of LLMs can be realized by learning how to use a search engine properly. Probably more. Nonetheless, I've fully embraced my accidentally-acquired curmudgeon identity and know that I'm in the minority about this.
[^1] You won't believe how many people leave their laptops unlocked and their screen's contents visible for everyone to see. Committing identity theft has to be easier than ever these days. This basic infosec principle seems to be something we've lost since the great WFH migration.
If you're going to say "but in a working environment you use a computer", then teach them how to use text processing and spreadsheets int the computer room, a thing that didn't happen today in most schools btw.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/new-york-city-public-...
Then reverseed the ban
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/chatgpt-ban-dropped-new-york-ci...
I don't think this is necessarily wrong, but over the years I have seen many high achieving senior students writing about or being interviewed about topics where they are less representing the community they are a member of, but the opinions that supports those who give them praise, support, and opportunities.
I don't think it should reflect poorly on a student that does that, but I also don't think you can draw significant conclusions from their stated opinions. Most people like this have not yet found their own voice, what you hear is often the voice that they think they are supposed to have. For many, tertiary education is as much about finding that voice as it is studying specific fields
Measuring what is best for students is an incredibly complex task, not least because 'best' can mean different things to different people, and often the wellbeing of the student is not considered high enough. There is science here, but given the importance of the field, way less than there should be. Changing education for the better is extremely difficult when the science conflicts with public opinion. There are forces at play that know that their only path to success is through swaying public opinion because the science is against them. The science of education can be laborious, slow, and full of difficult to express nuance. It is also the only sure process by which we can find out what actually works.
So by all means follow the argument that it makes, but don't mistake the source as being representative. The author expresses their love for debating and development. I imagine that they would respect the sentiment that the work should stand on what was said, rather than who said it.
[as a final thought]
It would actually be an interesting research project to find articles like this written on contentious issues over the years and locating the writers to get their opinions on them with the benefit of hindsight.
Of course, they could still AI to help them with homework but people were already copying the homework from their mates. But if they just copy and don't learn, that would be surfaced during the exams.
Similarly for the debate club - why are teams allowed to have any technology in the hall in the first place?
Education is supposed to be difficult - that's how we learn!! Teachers seem to pander more and more to students who complain that "This is too difficult". As if easy learning was ever a thing!
But this has already been the case. We have all been running behind numbers for so long. Nobody gives a damn about actually learning.
I started learning after I got my first job. Started focusimg on literature, arts and languages a lot more after I started working. AI only amplifies this to the next level.
There are certain aspects like disciplinary and on time scenarios which I can agree with. But the education system has not been about education since for a long time. Sure, premium institutions had something going on. But maybe that is what will be takenover by AI as well?
I hope that how we educate changes, forces by AI, improving in ways that would have helped people like me. I worry that might mean lessened access for all, if it requires the cost to go up.
In the workplace, we're using AI anyway.
I'm not sure if this direction is suitable for kids, like we still learn to do calculation even when we have calculator (which is needed for some cases, but for complex math, we opt for tools)
This reminds me of type 1 vs type 2 fun. Type 1 fun is fun in the moment; drinks with friends. Type 2 isn’t fun in the moment but is fun in retrospect. Generally people choose type 1 if given a choice but type 2 I find is the most rewarding. It’s what you’ll talk about with your friends at the bar. I know it’s very much old man, well I guess this high schooler is too, yelling at clouds but I do worry what the elimination of challenge does to our ability to learn and form relationships. I’d expect there to be a sweet spot. Obviously too much challenge and people shut down.
AI will, like previous technologies, enable some of us to become more productive. In fact, it raises the bar on productivity, since an experienced programmer can now create much more code. (An inexperienced one can create much more mess, so you might not see it in aggregate statistics).
When it comes to the classroom, we should do the same. We raise the bar so that in fact, you cannot do anything without using AI. Much as you would run out of time if you didn't have a spreadsheet in a stats course 20 years ago, or pandas 10 years ago. The new tech enables more work to get done in the form of learning more high level things, while relegating lower level things to just building blocks that can be understood in the same way we understand reference texts, ie "I've seen the principal once, and I can find it again if I get to that level of abstraction".
Teaching needs to change. Perhaps the thing to do is have an Oxford tutorial rather than traditional class. For those who didn't attend, a tutorial is basically two students and a professor in a room, talking. You can't hide. You can prepare however you like, and you should spend quite a lot of hours if you're sparring with a politics or math professor. But once you're in the room, it becomes painfully obvious if you are unprepared. This is a way to get accountability.
At the moment, we have this high school system testing that is a factory. Every test is done as a thing that is easily marked. Multiple choice, or short answer, or short essay. It encourages superficial learning when you know you can dance around the important topics and just pick up the easy points, as well as simply avoiding silly errors. You can also win by simply learning the likely questions, and aping the answers.
Have a weekly small-group session with an expert, and they can find your limits. Yes, it will cost money.
the montessori and sudbury school model always seemed closest to what was necessary, although now I wonder if even those are cracking at the seams with outsourced thinking
regardless, I think a re-evaluation of the point is absolutely necessary.
self-motivated children are rare and require a specific environment and support system to thrive in, but will always be there to escape the more obvious return to serfs working on fiefs, unless born into capital themselves
We have great traction with universities in USA and Australia. The flywheel that we've constructed means that students are being prepared for industry + research in a Post-AI world, and professors can see exactly how students are using AI tooling. Our findings are that knowledge of how students are using AI goes a long way to helping institutions adapt.
Keen to chat and share our findings - reach out at hamish(at)kurnell.ai !
It's pretty fucking dire. I think we're failing an entire generation of kids and the ramifications of this is going to be real bad in 5-10 years. I've heard similar stories from friends of mine whom are teachers.
The only thing I'll say that's good is it might lead to less homework, which I always thought was poorly designed and mostly busywork.
It's awful, but I think we'll see it happen, sadly.