This comment comes some 15 years late. Microsoft runs the biggest org on github and has open sourced a lot of their own code under permissive licenses.

IE has been dead and buried for ages. Edge doesn't have even close to the same market share and is based on Chromium.

They build more and more of their own UIs on Electron.

I honestly don't remember when they tried to snare someone to use proprietary extensions to something open. I probably have missed a few instances.

Long story short: MS isn't a saint. They are a business. And they have behaved relatively nice for so long that some young adults don't know any other side of MS now.

These are the kind of claims that make some Linux users tiresome to talk to. (Full disclosure: I am also a Linux user).

I'm not defending Microsoft, they are not necessarily my cup of tea, but these claims are only true of anything pre-Nadella era (part of 2014 and earlier).

Feel free to express your opinions, but don't be hateful!

> For the last 25 years, Microsoft was known for:

- Creating a language (typescript) that took the front-end web community by storm.

- Becoming one of the real adopters of "progressive web apps". Apple is actively hostile to them, because they would eat into the 30% cut they are making from the apps distributed via the app store; Google, once a champion, has grown kinda tepid, because it also gets a cut from apps distributed via Google Play; but Microsoft now behave as if they are a believer.

- Shipping a tremendously popular text editor, Visual Studio Code.

> making cringe hardware that basically noone purchased

Their keyboards were arguably the best ones around. I'm literally typing this on a 20 year old MS keyboard right now.

> - making cringe hardware that basically noone purchased (Zune, Windows Phone)

I don't personally get too attached to devices I purchase or begrudge others for what they buy so, I'm curious what made them "cringe hardware" in your opinion. Adoption aside, they looked like pretty compelling devices to me. Is this a case of buying anything that isn't Apple isn't cool? Or is there something deeper there?

> making cringe hardware that basically noone purchased (Zune, Windows Phone)

The 25 year window you picked actually coincides almost exactly with the time since the original X-Box was launched. Seems an odd omission from the list of hardware MS released in that time period.

Also the IntelliMouse Explorer was released in late 1999, which nobody who has ever had to clean the gunk off a mouseball roller would describe as ‘cringe’.

This "Microsoft are good guys" is a bizarre recurring comment that has appeared on HN for quite a while now

It's like pretending people must choose from Russia, North Korea, South Sudan or the Central African Republic

Who are the good guys

None of these companies are "good guys"

These "Leave Microsoft alone" HN comments will undoubtedly persist

Perhaps there are MS employees who comment on HN and they are sensitive about criticism

The idea Microsoft is somehow benign is truly hilarious

It is not difficult to argue the damage this company causes today without retribution is far worse than what they did in the past

IME, Microsoft is very cult-like; the employees believe that Microsoft has a solution for any problem, and there is never, ever any contemplation that the company creates problems ;this does not stop with the employees, it can extend to others who are "bought in" to the Redmond ecosystem

> For the last 25 years, Microsoft was known for:

That's true, but there is a catch in your wording. For the last 15 year, Microsoft has:

- Adopted open source/free software and gave contributions to various project (e.g. Linux in 2012 https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTEwNzE)

- Abandoned the worst web browser in existence. That they created :)

- Abandoned ActiveX (29 years ago), Silverlight (4 years ago)

+ Opened .NET to more platform than just Windows. It can now run very well on Linux, Mac, etc.

+ Made many of its locked down stuff open source - .NET, Z3, hell there was that few weeks ago open sourcing of the WinUI framework, etc.

+ Pivoted towards the cloud where OSS software synergizes with their cloud offerings.

Do they do corrupt deals with governments? Well yes, but so does every other big corp. And making cringe hardware isn't a crime in itself.

Do they still do a lot of shady shit? You bet, but they only started getting worse a few years ago. You are thinking it doesn't come in waves and it was all evil, all the time.

Zune was actually kinda nice - although I agree nobody bought it!

It's always better when companies are hungry for business. I thought that in 2016ish it was super cool for Microsoft to get into Linux, build VS Code, and make bets like the Surface Studio.

For comparison, I think Mac OS in 2008 was also at a bit of a golden age:

- You had native file support for .iso, .zip without needing to install crapware like Winzip.

- You even could preview *.psd files out the box.

- You had first-party apps like Image Capture to scan documents without needing to install extra software.

- There was an amazing third-party app ecosystem with things like Yojimbo, OnyX, Little Snitch, Quicksilver, Handbrake, Coda, Adium.

This was around the time of the "I'm a Mac" campaign when Apple was _hungry_ to win business away from Windows. All of these small, polished advantages made me fall in love with the experience.

OSX today is still good but there definitely isn't that same level of "underdog hunger" showing up in the products as of late.

Anyway I'm just trying to say companies being hungry for business shows up in its products and that's better for consumers.

Windows Phone was solid. Actual innovation in mobile UI.

Commercial success hasn’t been an argument for technical supremacy since Betamax.

ActiveX plugins? MSJVM? Last 25 years? You might need to update your script.

Talk to some developers with 3-5yoe, they do see Microsoft as a cool company. For them it’s a company that created TypeScript, supports open source, runs NPM, created VSCode etc. None of them thinks of Internet Explorer, Zune, or anti competitive behavior. You will always associate MS with these failures, the generation after you won’t

>For the last 25 years, Microsoft was known for:

That was 10 years ago

Hey! I liked my Windows Phone. Original Xbox and the first half of Xbox 360 where also cool. End of list of good things however.

30 years, not 25. A lot of early contributions to Linux basically came with a "PS: Fuck Microsoft" at the bottom.

> - shipping the worst web browser in existence, despite 80%+ market share

Original non-Chromium Edge was damn good btw. It had the best butter-smooth and elegant epub reader implementation I have even seen in any software.

While I mostly agree with your assessment, I feel like the Xbox is pretty cool.

I don't know where you've been the last decade, but it's clear they have been perceived this way. Him describing that perception only to be ridiculed by you is a pretty low blow.

I think you may have been under a rock for the last 5-10 years

Don’t Apple and Ubuntu also advertise products in their OS also?

Microsoft is also LinkedIn, GitHub, Typescript, NPM (NPM! Where do you host your dependencies?), games and OpenAI.

I love how each sector they’re invested in is a practical monopoly.

Much as it was all true and a lot of us were there, Microsoft moved on and so must open source. These aren't the Bobs anymore.

> - making cringe hardware that basically noone purchased (Zune, Windows Phone)

Add the most recent lineup of Xbox consoles to this

This is bullshit, the Zune was great and was doing incredibly well, at least around here.

It was THE device to have, people were going crazy for them; there was enough pent up demand that people were breaking windows and sliding into cars to get them.

I still miss that thing.

> - making cringe hardware that basically noone purchased (Zune, Windows Phone)

The Surface looks cool to me, but since it runs Windows, I will never use it. Does it only look cool, or is actually a cool device?

> Zune

The Zune was 100% uncool, but man did I like the hardware and software sooo much better than the iPod / ITunes. I was just sad that I never found anyone to "squirt" at.

eh, they had short blip in the relatively recent history, especially with developers, in mid 2010s.

With dotnet core 1-3 - open source cross platform .net, that was modern, fresh and clearly a project done by developers for developers. add vscode to this and it seems nice.

but as soon as 5 hit, if you look into details, they went to their usual bullshit, starting with stapling together winforms and wpf to it. the feel of the project shifted from 'developers for developers' to usual top down management.

vscode is also a weird case - it looks open source, but isn't at all(the builds you get aren't just from the same codebase + no access to extensions legally if you build your own, or fork it)

>shipping the worst web browser in existence

Which? IE6? IE6 is the best web browser in existence though. You confuse standard with good.

25 years? Try 40.

I agree with you

Can't they be forgiven? For taking the shit show JS was/is and turning it into magical TS?

Also champions of idiotic subscription models instead of providing long-term value to customers.

And today they are even complicit in genocide and avid supporters of fascist USA dictator Trump, can hardly get less cool then that

This is such a typical HN low IQ comment.