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0 pointsDylan168078mo ago0 comments

> Do you believe that “skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will have a climate impact?

If "use LLMs for a year" is enough to count as having a climate impact (negatively), then yes I believe "skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year" is enough to count (positively).

I'd be tempted to write off both of those, but the whole point of your argument is to consider LLM resource use important, so I'm completely accepting that for the sake of the above argument.

There are no theoretical vegans involved.

And the suggestion doesn't even involve vegans, unless there's a massive contingent of americans that only eat meat one day per year that I wasn't aware of.

And to get at what I think is your core objection: The fact that people can do this isn't being used to let companies off the hook. If only 2% of LLM users set up a meat skipping day, then LLM companies are only 2% let off the hook.

But at the same time let's keep a proportional sense of how big the hook is.

> They exist in the real world, right now. It is a real phenomenon

The strawman is you accusing people of supporting those generators.

> your position that using LLMs is categorically fine

I didn't say that.

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jrflowers8mo ago

>If "use LLMs for a year" is enough to count as having a climate impact (negatively), then yes I believe "skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year" is enough to count (positively).

Sorry, I should have clarified. In this case I meant “argument” as a thing that leads real people to either understand or agree with your position, not the construction of an idea in your mind.

With that in mind, do you think that “skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will convince enough real people, in real life, to not eat meat, that it offsets the emissions from LLM use?

Like imagine the future.

Since LLM use is a new category of energy use, you would have to convince people that haven’t already been convinced to skip meat by animal cruelty, health, philosophy, or existing climate concerns. People that were vegan before LLMs became popular obviously don’t count. The group of people that resisted decades of all that messaging will now make a meaningful adjustment to their consumption to cancel that out — and there will be enough of these new part time/full time vegans that it offsets the entire chat bot industry’s energy usage.

Do you imagine that being what happens?

If not it’s just somebody advocating for increased consumption in real life by invoking imaginary vegans.

As somebody that’s spent years as a vegan I am incredibly wary of “vegans can recruit” as a pitch. I’ve only ever heard that from people that have never tried to recruit in earnest or charlatans. Like I’ve mostly heard that from people that are not, never have been, and have no interest in being vegan.

Edit:

>The strawman is you accusing people of supporting those generators.

That’s not what a strawman is and it’s not an accusation, it’s an observation. If you say “I want subscription based online batched mega-high-compute language models” you are advocating for that industry, and those generators are part of it. Saying you feel that they’re somehow special and different because they’re icky does not make them any different from the thing that you say is necessarily the future. That you want!

Dylan16807OP8mo ago

I think anyone that does get convinced and skip meat should be able to use LLMs without shame or guilt, while we continue to pressure everyone else to save resources and we continue to pressure LLM companies to save resources.

LLM companies only get let off the hook if a very large fraction of their users do the meat skip thing, which is not very likely but could theoretically happen.

LLMs being a new category of energy use should get them some extra scrutiny, but only some. Maybe 3x scrutiny per wasted kilowatt hour compared to entrenched uses? If our real motivation is resource use, and not overreacting to change, LLMs should get some pressure but most of the pressure should go toward preexisting wasteful uses.

Nobody is advocating to ignore LLMs. But we shouldn't overstate them too much either.

And the giving up meat defense is not a defense for the companies, it's a defense for individual users that actually do it.

jrflowers8mo ago

It was a yes or no question

Like not an if or maybe thing, what do you see when you picture the future?

Do you think “Skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will produce enough new vegans to offset the energy usage and co2 produced by the LLM architecture of your choice?

Not asking if you want it to happen or if it’s something you can imagine could happen, I’m asking if you think it will

[_] yes

[_] no

Because if no, then the idea is just advocating for increased real consumption by invoking imaginary vegans!

Edit:

>LLM companies only get let off the hook if a very large fraction of their users do the meat skip thing, which is not very likely but could theoretically happen.

The person I was initially talking to took the position that LLM companies have negligible impact because people can be vegan. J-bp was saying that LLM companies shouldn’t be on anybody’s radars because uh, meat is 100,000 times worse.

The person you hopped in to defend was saying that LLM companies do not and should not have a “hook” because meat eaters exist

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0 pointsDylan168078mo ago0 comments

> Do you believe that “skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will have a climate impact?

If "use LLMs for a year" is enough to count as having a climate impact (negatively), then yes I believe "skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year" is enough to count (positively).

I'd be tempted to write off both of those, but the whole point of your argument is to consider LLM resource use important, so I'm completely accepting that for the sake of the above argument.

There are no theoretical vegans involved.

And the suggestion doesn't even involve vegans, unless there's a massive contingent of americans that only eat meat one day per year that I wasn't aware of.

But at the same time let's keep a proportional sense of how big the hook is.

> They exist in the real world, right now. It is a real phenomenon

The strawman is you accusing people of supporting those generators.

> your position that using LLMs is categorically fine

I didn't say that.

0 comments

jrflowers8mo ago

>If "use LLMs for a year" is enough to count as having a climate impact (negatively), then yes I believe "skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year" is enough to count (positively).

Sorry, I should have clarified. In this case I meant “argument” as a thing that leads real people to either understand or agree with your position, not the construction of an idea in your mind.

With that in mind, do you think that “skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will convince enough real people, in real life, to not eat meat, that it offsets the emissions from LLM use?

Like imagine the future.

Do you imagine that being what happens?

If not it’s just somebody advocating for increased consumption in real life by invoking imaginary vegans.

Edit:

>The strawman is you accusing people of supporting those generators.

Dylan16807OP8mo ago

LLM companies only get let off the hook if a very large fraction of their users do the meat skip thing, which is not very likely but could theoretically happen.

Nobody is advocating to ignore LLMs. But we shouldn't overstate them too much either.

And the giving up meat defense is not a defense for the companies, it's a defense for individual users that actually do it.

jrflowers8mo ago

It was a yes or no question

Like not an if or maybe thing, what do you see when you picture the future?

Do you think “Skip meat for a day use LLMs for a year” will produce enough new vegans to offset the energy usage and co2 produced by the LLM architecture of your choice?

Not asking if you want it to happen or if it’s something you can imagine could happen, I’m asking if you think it will

[_] yes

[_] no

Because if no, then the idea is just advocating for increased real consumption by invoking imaginary vegans!

Edit:

>LLM companies only get let off the hook if a very large fraction of their users do the meat skip thing, which is not very likely but could theoretically happen.

The person you hopped in to defend was saying that LLM companies do not and should not have a “hook” because meat eaters exist

1 more reply

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