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0 pointsgeokon1y ago0 comments

This is outside my area of expertise.. so naiive question.. but ports aren't tied to the protocol .. right? If you open a raw socket, it's still on some associated port number. NAT traversal multiplexes ports.. so why would that preclude using any arbitrary protocol?

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11 comments · 6 top-level

withinboredom1y ago· 3 in thread

Ports are tied to the protocol. IP layer doesn’t have ports (it’s in the name).

pta20021y ago

I've been trying for a few minutes to figure out what you mean by "it's in the name"... What about Internet Protocol implies that ports are not an inherent property of it?

All I can think of is that an "IP address" does not have a port component and that's all that IP deals with.

withinboredom1y ago

yep. That is exactly it. The IP layer is specifically a map with destination ip address and source ip address. The port is not included.

unethical_ban1y ago

It's not like "Ports" are in the name of UDP or TCP, either.

tsimionescu1y ago· 2 in thread

Ports are very much a concept of the transport layer. They are a very useful concept, so they are used in all major transport-layer protocols, but they are not necessary in a theoretical sense (though a transport layer protocol without them would only allow a single stream of traffic between any two machines, or at least IPs). But TCP port 22 is a completely different thing than UDP port 22, and they are both completely different from SCTP port 22. To prevent confusion, IANA typically assigns the same port number for a protocol on both TCP and UDP (e.g. DNS over TCP uses TCP port 53, just like DNS over UDP uses UDP port 53; and QUIC uses UDP port 443, just like HTTPS uses TCP port 443).

When a machine receives a packet, after the Ethernet and IP layers have made sure the packet is addressed to this machine, the very next thing that happens is checking what transport layer implementation should receive the packet - and this is done based on the "transport" bits in the IP header. If the packet is, say, TCP, then the TCP layer starts reading its own header and finds out the port number, and proceeds from there.

geokonOP1y ago

> But TCP port 22 is a completely different thing than UDP port 22

OH woah woah. Okay that's the root of my confusion then. Nevermind. I thought the OS network stack exposes ports and packets come on to ports

Nevermind then :)

adrianmonk1y ago

You are partially right, though. The OS network stack does expose and handle ports if you use a protocol that has them.

Networks are built in layers. There's a physical layer underneath IP, then there's IP, and then there's TCP and UDP on top of IP.

The OS network stack has components that handle all of these layers. That's why it's called a stack.

Port numbers are part of the individual protocol (TCP or UDP) because there are a lot of things you can do with networking, and port numbers don't necessarily make sense with all of them.

For example, when you ping another computer, that uses ICMP, and there is no need for ports with ICMP. You're pinging the whole computer, not trying to connect with one of several applications running on it. So ports are not really needed.

numpad01y ago

TCP/IP is a protocol called TCP encapsulated in protocol called IP. Raw IP packets have "protocol number" for use by payload, but not port number. Port number is technically part of custom data that IP layer should not care about.

If you mean socket as in `my_socket = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0);` that's TCP/IP, not raw IP, so it will have port numbers in the TCP part of the packet. `SOCK_STREAM` and `SOCK_DGRAM` respectively correspond to TCP and UDP. Raw IP sockets on Linux can be created by `socket(AF_INET, SOCK_RAW, protocol);` and that will have no TCP/UDP header attached by the Kernel after the IP header in the packet.

(googling a bit as I write, forgive errors)

Hikikomori1y ago

IP has no ports, it has a protocol field, TCP, UDP, IPsec and other layer 4 protocols have their own protocol number. NAT (PAT really) uses TCP and UDP ports to connect what can be considered separate connections, ie a connection on the inside and a connection on the outside, these connections don't even have the same source/destination ports as connection state tracking is what connects these separate connections.

The socket API has different types of sockets, typically you use stream (TCP) or dgram (UDP), but you can also get a completely raw socket where you need to construct your own ethernet and IP headers, or create your own replacement of IP protocol. So socket does not mean only TCP/UDP or something with ports, unix sockets are another example of this.

nlitened1y ago

Ports are part of TCP and UDP, not IP, as far as I can tell. So ports are tied to the protocol

globular-toast1y ago

When using a packet socket you are sending bytes directly to the device driver. The only ports at this level are the physical ports on your machine which will have names like "eth1" etc. Assuming an Ethernet driver, the bytes must be a valid Ethernet frame[0], but that's all. The payload is just bytes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_frame

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