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0 pointskcplate1y ago0 comments

>>> Jerry: But I made some good decisions about what shows up when. For instance, I don’t like the idea of showing deals for Bermuda when someone searches for “Caribbean”

While Bermuda not being part of the Caribbean might be true…it’s really not a valid point in this circumstance. It was an apparent dev assumption that this level of precision was desired even if it wasn’t requested or its absence as a requirement was a mistake. When it was reported as a bug, that should have prompted the developer to clarify with the PM the OG requirement so they were both on the same page. He didn’t, he assumed she was wrong…apparently twice.

The PM probably understood that to their lay users the terms “Bermuda”, “Caribbean”, and “Islands” all have a degree of marketing relevance to each other (There is a reason why you might dumb down search results for something like that). Judging by what was information given in the story, apparently dumbed down search results was known and required in the past.

Not sure there is any “right” way to gently coach an employee that disregarded proper protocol and requirements, lied about it, blamed a colleague, and initially refused to accept responsibility when it was brought to their attention. That would be damn frustrating. I know HN loves to blame the manager, but this is one of those instances where it seems every portion of the problem and its escalation appears to lie solely at the feet of the developer. It least in my opinion.

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Herring1y ago

It’s super easy to coach an employee about this. I’ve done it many times, even once publicly to a director while I was a senior. Just acknowledge their train of thought extra generously, then explain why this case is different. ChatGPT has been trained to do this. I’d say your paragraph 2 was great, and yes the manager should have tried talking about “level of precision” or “marketing relevance” instead of defaulting forcefully to “because i/product said so”.

kcplateOP1y ago

Yeah I agree that the manager seemed to leap pretty quick onto the “you don’t get to have independent thought in secret” train. Of course we only see one side of the story too. But it kind of feels to me like this might not have been the first time there has been a need to coach this person either. Not sure that just one instance really gets you to lack of trust.

I’ve been in the business a long time in multiple roles up to senior leadership. I am at the sunset of my career and found a lovely tech role where I happily don’t have to manage anyone but myself and it’s glorious. In all that time I have encountered my fair share of the Jerry types in the last almost 40 years so I am probably jaded and know the frustration.

Herring1y ago

Yeah and maybe the employee has been asked to implement dark patterns before. Such is modern capitalism.

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roenxi1y ago

> I know HN loves to blame the manager, but this is one of those instances where it seems every portion of the problem and its escalation appears to lie solely at the feet of the developer.

Yeah, that is a tell that the manager is being unreasonable. What are the odds that every portion of this sits with the developer? Close to 0. That isn't how miscommunications generally happen. But it is a pattern that turns up when borderline abusive people report their interactions on the internet [0]. I don't trust this paraphrase of what Jerry was saying at all. It seems much more likely he led with something reasonable "Bermuda isn't in the Caribbean and we made a decision in the past to exclude Caribbean deals when that sort of search happens" then the manager fumbled the conversation in follow-up and managed to make it weird.

Though it does seem like the developer was making mistakes; I've seen scenes play out that I'd rate as similar. Part of the dev's job is to manage their manager when that manager is struggling. In this case the manager seems to have gotten stuck in the mindset of being a big monkey and the response to that is to let them monkey out peacefully and not make a fuss.

It could have been worse; but this looks like bad-to-average leadership on display.

[0] Big red flags in the "I wasn't sure he was working in good faith" and "Maybe he was feeling lazy" quote with no evidence. We're likely seeing misreported conversation; the manager doesn't understand what is going on conversationally if he got to that mindset in this sort of situation. What else did he get wrong?

kcplateOP1y ago

While it’s certainly written from the managers POV and will show that bias, but the behavior and attitude he is describing is not unheard of from SWEs and the personality types that are attracted to that vocation. Frankly it’s frustrating and a challenge that cannot be easily dismissed as “bad-to-average leadership”. It might be bad leadership, but it’s bad behavior from the employee too and that should be acknowledged.

When I managed technical people I used to describe the challenge to management folks outside of tech that in tech management you are managing a group of people where everyone is absolutely convinced that they are smarter than everyone else around them. Often not only just smarter but their other colleagues are bumbling idiots.

So my bias from experience is that this dev was wrong, because I have been through very similar scenarios with similar Jerry’s. I spent 2 decades managing engineers, but haven’t for a decade so I acknowledge that times change and perhaps stroking fragile egos is a management necessity in 2025 where it wasn’t in 2015. I also had the benefit of supportive executive leadership that allowed me to quickly cycle out those personalities like “Jerry” to build a team where even if folks were convinced they were smarter than their peers, they would at least communicate with each and be respectful of the entire team’s contribution that allowed us to minimize source issues like was described in this story.

roenxi1y ago

I might expect many managers to be in alignment with Mr. respectfulleadership.substack.com on similar logic to the principle that about half of managers are below the median manager in communication skills. Empathy is a rare and difficult ability. But if this manager was adept at it he would be doing a much better job of articulating "Jerry"'s actual concerns and reflecting on why he was failing to communicate with him instead of setting up and gloriously defeating the strawman we see in the article. While failing at communication so hard he felt he had to do the ticket himself; we might note.

There are engineers convinced that they are smarter than everyone else but that isn't what is happening in this vignette at all. Even with my grave concerns about how accurate the reporting is of what he said, half the story is the reportee trying to figure out what he's done wrong and how to stop his manager from beating him with a rhetorical stick. That isn't the action of a man convinced he is the smartest guy in the room. But it is the reporting of a manger who believes beating someone else with a rhetorical stick makes him look good.

I'm not even saying this guy is a bad leader overall; at least he isn't being especially passive aggressive and this doesn't say anything about him at his day-to-day. But if he understood what attitudes and behaviours he was displaying in this story he wouldn't have been so keen to publish it. People who've had to deal with abusive people in power positions are going to have alarm bells going off reading this. It looks like someone lying to themselves and the reader in order to feel good about wielding power. Although, reading charitably, it might just be ignorance and low-grade communication ability.

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Herring1y ago

kcplateOP1y ago

Herring1y ago

Yeah and maybe the employee has been asked to implement dark patterns before. Such is modern capitalism.

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roenxi1y ago

> I know HN loves to blame the manager, but this is one of those instances where it seems every portion of the problem and its escalation appears to lie solely at the feet of the developer.

It could have been worse; but this looks like bad-to-average leadership on display.

kcplateOP1y ago

roenxi1y ago

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