GraalPy – A high-performance embeddable Python 3 runtime for Java (opens in new tab)

Performance does indeed depend on workload. There's a page that compares GraalPy vs CPython and Jython on the Python Performance Suite which aims to be "real world":

https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/python/Perfo...

There the speedup is smaller, but this is partly because a lot of real world Python workloads these days spend all their time inside C or the GPU. Having a better implementation is still a good idea though, because it means more stuff can be done by researchers who don't know C++ well or at all. The point at which you're forced to get dedicated hackers involved to optimize gets pushed backwards if you can rely on a good JIT.

This is especially important for scripting languages like Python, where a large part of the features are implemented in C or other native languages and called via FFI. That's why, for example, the benchmark implements its own collections, because we want to know how fast the interpreter is. Otherwise, as you have noticed, the result is randomly influenced by how much compute a particular application can delegate to the FFI.

We also want to make it easy for Python package maintainers to test and build wheels for GraalPy. It's already available via setup-python, and we are adding GraalPy support to cibuildwheel. If you need any help, please reach out to us!

So you gain the perf of a JIT, while losing out on most everything else high-performance in the Python ecosystem.

You can have your cake and eat it too https://github.com/hylang/hy

Add to that the existing excellent ecosystem, the strong culture of scientific stacks and a very good story for providing c-extentions (actually the best one in all scripting languages because of things like cibuildwheel).

It's only in small tech bubbles like HN that devs find it surprising.

Perl was the leading tool for scripting and text parsing. Python didn’t really supplant it for a long time — until people started writing more complicated scripts that had to be maintained. Perl reads like line noise after 6 months whereas I can look at Python code from 20 years ago, prettify it with black, and understand it.

Python got picked up by the scientific computing community, which gave it some its earliest libraries like numpy, f2py, scipy. Some of us who were on MATLAB moved over.

Then data science happened. Pandas built off the scientific computation foundations and eventually libraries like scikit and matplotlib (mimicking matlab’s plotting) came along.

Then tensorflow came along and built on the foundation of numerical libraries. PyTorch followed.

Other systems like Django came and made python popular for building database backed websites.

Suddenly there was momentum and today almost all numerical software have a python API — this includes proprietary stuff like CPLEX and what have you.

Python was the glue language that had the lowest barrier of entry. For instance, Spark was written in Scala and has a performant Scala API but everyone uses PySpark because it’s much more accessible, despite the interop cost.

The counterfactual to all this was Ruby. It had much nicer syntax than Python but when I tried to use it in grad school I was quickly stymied by the lack of numerical libraries. Ruby never found a niche outside of Rails and config management.

Essentially Python — like Nvidia today — bet on linear algebra (and more broadly on data processing) and won.

I get why there’s hate for Python — it’s not a perfect language. Yet those of us pragmatists who use it understand the trade offs. You trade off on the metal performance for programmer performance. You trade off packaging difficulties for something that works. You trade off an imperfect syntax for getting things done.

I could have used Ruby — a much more beautiful lanaguage — in grad school and worked around its lacks, but I would have not graduated on time. Python was pragmatic choice for me and continues to be one for me today (outside of situations requiring raw performance)

Example see the Bioinformatics papers from that period, and the Perl tooling used alongside the research.

Already in 2003 CERN was using Python on some of their build infrastructure (see CMT), Grid Computing scripting efforts, and we had Python trainings available to us.

Now there is a difference between a REPL of sorts, scripting OS tasks, and going full blown applications with a pure interpreter.

Although GraalPy can create standalone applications [1], you don't have to turn your hello world script into a self-contained binary. You can, of course, create a JAR that depends on GraalPy, or a fat JAR that contains it, and deploy it just like any other Java application.

We are still updating our docs to mention more details on this and publish some guides, apologies for the delay.

[1] https://www.graalvm.org/latest/reference-manual/python/stand...

There are certainly some leaky abstractions and there is a general expectation that you understand the quirks of Python and Clojure pretty well, so it's not for everyone. Knowing something about Java would probably help too but I've been using libpython-clj in production since 2017 years and I barely know anything about Java (compared to Python/Clojure).

But having these in Graal would allow more types of applications to be deployed in JVM stacks. As sibling comments note, many data science models are in python but production stacks are in Java.

Additionally if XML isn't your thing Maven is making a push for other formats in Maven 4 like HOCON [1].

[0] https://blog.gradle.org/declarative-gradle-first-eap [1] https://github.com/apache/maven-hocon-extension

I'm using it for similar purposes as you stated and for that it works quite well. A research group I am collaborating with does a lot of their work in one Java application (ImageJ for microscopy), so by integrating my Python processing code into that application, it finds its way a lot quicker into the daily workflows of everyone in that group.

Most recently I've also extended the jep setup to include optional Python version bootstrapping via uv[1], so that I can be sure that the plugins I'm writing have the correct Python version available, without people having to install that manually on the machine.

[0]: https://github.com/ninia/jep

[1]: https://github.com/astral-sh/uv

Everyone else has to write wrappers to interact with that blackbox. God forbid someone daring to even change the code, because it basically doesn't even need/use junit tests. Eventually the smart person gets bored and moves to something else, that tool then gets rewritten to Java in two days by someone else.

End of story.

Not sure if you were wanting Python specifically, but KubeJS lets you use JavaScript for mods. I think there's also a clojure integration.