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Kye1y ago

For historical context: this was before the conclusion of the antitrust case that led Microsoft to start softening its stance toward open source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

This was the same year Antitrust came out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust_(film)

Any support for open source or cross-platform stuff was a bulwark against claims of monopoly abuse, but none of it worked well enough to be a true replacement. Mono worked for some purposes, but it was far from the first party support cross-platform .NET gets today. Nowadays it sounds like .NET Core + third-party GUI libraries is the way to go.

paranoidrobot1y ago

> Nowadays it sounds like .NET Core + third-party GUI libraries is the way to go.

For reference for those unfamiliar with the terms:

.NET Core was the name given to the cross-platform fork of the .NET runtime.

It was forked out of .NET 4.x and dropped support for a lot of things in the first versions.

It ran on various distributions of Linux and MacOS.

At the same time there were forks of other libraries/frameworks in the .NET ecosystem to have 'Core' variants. Often these were dropping support for legacy parts of their code so that they could run on Core.

Later versions of .NET Core brought over support for a many of the things that had been dropped.

.NET Core and .NET had stand-alone versions until .NET Core was renamed to . NET and became .NET 5.

So, if you want to do the most modern cross-platform C# you would use .NET 9.

Okay, this helps a lot! So .NET Core is now out of date, and any version of .NET >= 5 is cross-platform and has no Core variant?

thanksgiving1y ago

Minor nit: from what I understand dot net (core) is not a fork but rather a reimplementation / rewrite as far as I understand

> It was forked out of .NET 4.x and dropped support for a lot of things in the first versions.

aspeckt1121y ago

Good write up that wonderfully encapsulates how stupid Microsoft’s naming is - you didn’t even mention .NET standard.

I love .NET. It’s a great stack, especially for backend web apps. Blazor is a great SPA framework too. But I loathe how Microsoft continue to handle just about everything that isn’t the framework and C# / F#. It’s laughable.

Among the other small nits in your otherwise concise post... the windows only versions of .NET (1-4) were known as .NET Framework. So, Framework is the only windows only version, followed by Core being a limited feature set but cross platform and then .NET 5 (no suffix) being a full featured version that is cross platform.

SideburnsOfDoom1y ago

> So, if you want to do the most modern cross-platform C# you would use .NET 9.

The current release is .NET 8

.NET 9 is about 3 months away from the usual November release.

dtech1y ago

I'd argue that the dominance of Linux on cloud and Azure growing business is what's causing Microsoft to have an ongoing interest in linux support.

A factoid that's shared sometimes (no idea if true) is that Microsoft now employs more Linux kernel engineers than Windows kernel engineers due to Azure.

Kye1y ago

That came after. Linux wasn't even on 2.6 with its famous stability yet when this kicked off. What you see now is a result. They softened on open source as they realized it actually has some benefits for a company like Microsoft.

The Microsoft of the Halloween Documents[0] is a different Microsoft from the one we see today that understands open source as something good rather than as a threat, and it started with Microsoft being forced to play nice.

"The cloud" as we understand it didn't exist yet.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

keepamovin1y ago

Off-topic but to join in the general good vibes this announcement emanates: i have to say that my experience using Azure cloud has been stellar. Their co-pilot integration works well, IME. Azure shell is simple and good. Dashboard UI is always good.

Bona fides: I have used GCP for 3 years, AWS for 3 years, and Azure for ~ 1 year. As well as the more "bare-metal" types of cloud providers like Linode/Akamai, and Vultr -- all the latter of which are great for self managing your infra.

I also really find the ability to spin up Windows Server and Windows 10/11 etc super useful for builds, testing, Hyper-V.

I really like Azure for huge projects with many moving parts.

More like it was shoring up for developers who use and/or target mac and linux. Many devs are using macs and targetting linux for deployments. MS wants Azure to be a first class option for developers and is the focus for making money going forward. It makes sense for their developer tools to offer that.

Kye1y ago

Azure didn't exist. OS X had just come out and almost no one took Macs seriously as a development target yet. Windows was the only user-facing thing anyone developed for aside from little Java games on flip phones. The Web 2.0 takeover was still years off and Internet Explorer ran the show.

Is "historical context" not as clear as I thought? You're the second person to challenge this by pointing out the current situation when I'm talking about how we got here.

simion3141y ago

Mono implemented the GUI stuff like Windows Forms, do the latest windows cross platform stuff support that? Can you run .Net GUI windows program on linux without Mono but using the latest .Net thing ? I know it was not possible in the past.

toyg1y ago

The whole point of .NET-Core was to remove all the (largely desktop-oriented) platform-specific dependencies that tied it to Windows, so you could run server-oriented .net programs on Linux. So no, afaik you can't simply run GUI apps built with .Net on Linux desktops - that's the reason Mono wasn't simply killed, because it covers that niche (which wouldn't even exist, were it not for Mono/Xamarin's efforts back then. But I digress...). Nowadays there are a few other attempts at providing that UI layer.

dark-star1y ago

.net Core still has Windows Forms thoguh? At least I (for kicks) migrated one of my old .net 4.something projects to .net core and it still works and shows the classic Windows Forms GUI.

It's (of course) not portable

pionar1y ago

You can use third party libs like Avalonia[1] or Uno[2]

[1] https://avaloniaui.net/ [2] https://platform.uno/

simion3141y ago

Sure, nobody wants to write Winforms new applications today

My point is about running existing applications on Linux, there are still issues with running .Net GUI stuff under wine and Mono was not a perfect implementation.

I read in other comments that the newer .Net cross platform stuff is not a replacement for Mono for running this old applications. (nobody will rewrite them to use the current GUI stuff from MS since are old apps)

neonsunset1y ago

You are expected to use Avalonia or Uno for multi-platform targeting or Gir.Core (GTK4) or one of the many other binding libraries for Linux-specific GUI.

Also very easy to throw something together on top of SDL2 with Silk.NET.

Practically speaking it is in a much better place than many languages considered by parts of Linux community to be more """linux-oriented""".

simion3141y ago

My personal use case is running old GUI apps, I am not planning on writing GUI apps with .Net , MS had the opportunity to open source .Net/Silverlight and make money from tools but they bet on Windows and today most apps are node and javascript, a much inferior platform but MS open things up too late.

qingcharles1y ago

I think this is what you need now...

https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/maui

"Build native, cross-platform desktop and mobile apps all in one framework."

I know my buddy uses it to write Android apps on his Mac that interface to an ASP.NET Core web site.

pests1y ago

I don't think that supports Linux tho

Isn't it just another Xamarin rebrand?

eppp1y ago

No, they pretty much gave up on winforms when .net core morphed into "the" .net that is cross platform. There are some nice crossplatform gui libs now though.

Not really. Winforms have been updated to .net core. And a bunch of handy features to modernize it have been added.

I'd say it's the simplest and quickest way to go if you need to bang out a quickie app for Windows only.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/desktop/winforms/?v...

What are the ones to use in 2024? I used to code informs, it was a great improvement on its successors.

.net Core doesn't supply WinForms, but WPF is the far more common paradigm for Windows apps now. WPF is supported by projects like Avalonia on Linux. There are also a few other major alternative UI toolkits, more commonly used by cross-platform (vs Windows-exclusive) developers.

.NET Core does support Windows Forms just fine, but it’s only available on Windows.

Buttons8401y ago

Is .NET open-source? Will I find it in an open-source repository?

NlightNFotis1y ago

Yes.

https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/

sva_1y ago

Seems so https://github.com/dotnet/dotnet

hexxington1y ago

This is the "virtual monorepo", if you want to clone one repo and build the entire SDK product then this is the correct thing to checkout - but development work right now still happens in the separate project repos, of which there are ~20

WorldMaker1y ago

Also, the main languages:

https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn

pantalaimon1y ago

Is there a way to build a GUI app with .NET on Linux?

Will it be cross-platform?

aspeckt1121y ago

Avalonia.

The UI isn't native, is a Skia canvass with drawn controls. But it'll work on basically every OS and it's pretty good.

Also, you're not writing JavaScript, so that's a win any day in my book.

mixmastamyk1y ago

Sounds like Flutter?

cultofmetatron1y ago

> Is there a way to build a GUI app with .NET on Linux?

yes

https://avaloniaui.net/

SandyAndyPerth1y ago

There was also a GTK package for Xamarin Forms which I've used https://github.com/xamarin/Xamarin.Forms/pkgs/nuget/Xamarin....

BUT That's now officially unsupported as all of Xamarin Forms is no longer supported and the MAUI replacement doesn't cover Linux nor does that look likely (MAUI is mired deep in problems due over-ambition, failure to resource and it seems a significant push in MS to use MAUI Hybrid aka web UIs within native apps).

pjmlp1y ago

I really don't get the push of Blazor everywhere instead of its original WebAssembly target.

It is like the Web folks, that don't get anything else, are now pushing where .NET goes, mostly since .NET is now under Azure org chart.

I have done Web and native since "forever", not everything has to be for everything.

megapoliss1y ago

https://github.com/picoe/Eto

  - OS X: MonoMac or net6.0-
  - Linux: GTK+ 
  - Windows: Windows Forms (using GDI or Direct2D) or WPF

Gtk

  - Gtk3: https://github.com/GtkSharp/GtkSharp
  - Gtk4: https://github.com/gircore/gir.core

Yes. There are multiple UI projects that build on the WinUI 3 components in the Win App SDK.

There's the first party MAUI which is an updated version of Xamarin Forms. The two best-known third-party implementations are AvaloniaUI and Uno. I prefer Uno, it has more cross-platform targets.

sasakrsmanovic21y ago

Yes. https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-linux/

giancarlostoro1y ago

There's this:

https://docs.tryphotino.io/Overview

Which lets you run Blazor (web framework) like a desktop UI across all major desktop platforms. Microsoft has MAUI/Blazor as a thing, but only targets Mac and Windows ATM, so Photino bridges the gap for Linux.

Photino lets you use anything other than just .NET but has pretty decent .NET support.

davidjade1y ago

There is also Uno

https://platform.uno/

zelcon1y ago

Create an ASP.NET Core web server embedded in a binary bundled with Electron and a React frontend. (jk)

Atotalnoob1y ago

That is how electron.NET basically works

(i hardly know what i'm talking about so somebody else may have a better idea, but i'm here now so)

mingw is a GNU's header/library environment (tools too maybe?) to create windows compatible applications. So I'd look into searching mingw .net and/or mingw mono.

also, ask your favorite AI, they're good at this type of question so long as it's not up to the minute news

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