I'm not fully sure regarding the last sentence though. The important thing to know for those who have never experienced it and who have issues that could come out during the trip is that you need to care A LOT about set and setting. You should have an experienced person whom you fully trust and who can guide you through the experience. Don't do it on your own when you're in a bad state, that's pretty much the worst way to take psychedelics and basically asking for the trip to go wrong. And you'll want to avoid strangers as well unless you're super extroverted maybe.
Also, and that's my personal take, don't sign up to questionable retreats or scientific studies/therapies conducted by self-proclaimed experts who have never taken it themselves. Just because someone has a degree in psychology - a questionable science to begin with when you look at all the failed attempts to replicate the findings - it doesn't mean they understand how it feels to be on a psychedelic trip.
It's not a matter of more work.
Whatever feeling you had about this chair has changed. It use to represent a memory or a feeling from childhood. That's changed or is gone for better or worse.
That's how to perceive how it works.
If you are 'fucked' because you can't move on it will help. If you feel a lack of connections to things/people it could help form new ones or reduce what you currently have.
Removing emotional memories can be scary. Removing PTSD memories can be freeing.
This is of course not everyones story, many i know who took similar substances ended up in much worse positions.Some had even been doing the work to get better also. For the time being I think theres an element of luck, but i hope we figure out how to remove the luck component and make it a science.
The way I'd explain it Is that whatever loss function the mind uses to optimize the personality was stuck in a poor local optima and psychedellics knocked that marble right loose. There was a time i was a bit 'lost' in it all but i was able to get back on track in a reasonable timeframe and through the change in perspectove and way of thinking kept improving well past were id gotten to prior to that.
Despite what positive things i have to say about it, i wouldnt recommend it, unless it truly is your last option. i spent years with psychologists and paychiatrists prior to that. Ive seen many go down the path of the illicit and not get better but much much worse, and more that went down professional help based pathways who got better more consistently, and got worse far more rarely.
Worth noting the research is on psilocybin with supportive psychotherapy, not just take some mushrooms you got from a guy and have at it.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/...
From my limited personal experience and having attended various psychedelic talks and integration workshops etc., set, setting and (post) support are all really key to help turn what can be a potentially life changing/affirming/challenging event into a beneficial one.
I never have had a bad trip, except for that time I took 800 mu-g GG in my tiny apartment. I became insanely restless, waking up 12 hours later trying to open the window to get to more natural environment. My lights were dropped on the floor, as well as plenty of water, broken electronics and ruined papers.
Since then I've learned to use music and earplugs; keep the windows open; have high CRI bulbs; keep lots of plants; and to never hesistate going to an ice shower when feeling like a confused and mentally stressed ape.
The level of control one wants, I believe, is roughly the same as beating a nightmare disorder with lucid dreaming. One ALSO must have familiarity with "foundations" of the world, or else they will end up doing dumb stuff with dumb beliefs. By foundations I mean sort of at least grasping that it's all arbitary and then building what you want on That.
What if actually your teacher was right, and they’re just dumb intoxicants that have no upside and a small chance of ruining your life?
See e.g.
* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731930964X
* https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2010.02805.xScience needs more Albert Hoffman's who are willing to couple their knowledge with this experience without fear of being fired from IRB violation and ostracized by the scientific community. Otherwise we will forever be grasping in the dark with these drugs.
Having someone who is experienced, sober and willing to guide you for hours (lots of trust) is crucial since the opti.al setting may not be the safest setting.
TL;DR - I struggle to trip or even enjoy a trip indoors. I have always felt shrooms work best when you let them help you attune to nature. Listening to the wind, trees, insects, etc... it's like washing your eyeballs with kittens.
it sounds like being on an airplane next to one of the engines. constant woosh. nothing at all like a warzone, or even a moderately busy range.
would be disconcerting as hell on drugs, but that's cuz it is even 100% sober -- it's a weird experience being in an MRI.
I have a pinched nerve in my back/shoulder that becomes very aggravated when laying flat on my back. It took 45 mins to do the MRI and we managed to not have to do any re-takes. I was so uncomfortable from eating the pain that I threw up as soon as I exited the machine. I simply couldn't imagine someone who is tripping trying to sit still that long (ignoring the auditory/spacial effects all together).
Essentially, the TL;DR of this study is that psilocybin's 5-HT2A agonism seems to reduce synchronized FC activity not just in neurons but the whole brain: psilocybin makes parts of the brain overall that otherwise work together (in a time-correlated sense) stop displaying time-correlation. These results were seen most in the Default Mode[1] network, which is more or less the brain system in operation when you are inside your head — daydreaming, thinking, remembering, etc. — as opposed to processing visual cues or observing the physical world.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_functional_connectivit...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network — this article is one of those that just blows my mind clean out my ears (heh); the brain is such a wonder.
But what causes this change in personality? People who have done a lot of psilocybin seem to be a lot less worried, a lot less neurotic, and a lot less wrapped up in the ego than those who haven't. After all, who wants to be wrapped up and ruminating based on the content of their thoughts? I've always thought of this behavior by those who have used psilocybin to be a feature, not a bug—as if they're enlightened.
But if, say, this newfound personality is the result of a loss in functional connectivity—what does that tell us about how other markers of cognitive function have changed? Is strong FC a prerequisite for strong executive function or other measures of intelligence? The paper seems to suggest that the changes in FC are associated with the default mode network and maybe not other states of brain focus.
But will a macro dose of psilocybin, say—make someone better at their job? Maybe we don't know yet, and maybe there won't be a clear answer; there is a lot of heterogeneity in the way people think, and how they exploit their own cognitive abilities to provide value in the world—so maybe a loss in FC will mean different things to different individauls. But given the suggestion from this paper that the effects of psilocybin may be somewhat permanent, the answer to this question will be a very useful for those looking to benefit from this therapeutic.
Finally, there will be a great deal of individual differences. One story will not fit all of us.
"How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan
https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/
There's also a multi-part Netflix series based on the book.
Don't be disappointed about it not being another spiritual dimension, they discovered we literally have effects pedals for our brains. This is the coolest thing ever. We could probably classify hallucinogenic artifacts by chorus, delay, flange, harmonics...
Their conclusion in that paper is that Propofol derails the brain’s normal balance between stability and excitability, which induces unconsciousness.
Oh yeah!
But what does that mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
Project MKUltra was an illegal human experiments program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used during interrogations to weaken people and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture.
[...]
The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on peopleWhile I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those experiences. People without experience should be careful, especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a history to some degree but not overtly.
His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them.
This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle.
I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.
But if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm is not used in self-defense, nor is it used to endanger a family member. The vast majority just . . . sit there. They're machines which must be used respectfully and responsibly, not magic evil talismans.
For example most people have access to cars, statistically much more dangerous than guns, and no one seems to imply that having a car around incites people to violence. People who are mentally ill and dangerous could as easily use any array of common tools or methods to commit acts which are dangerous to themselves and others. That doesn’t make it the tool’s fault.
I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly.
Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself.
Anyhow... hard lessons!
Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology.
It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch.
Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing.
End sidebar.
These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too.
Good PSA. Seconded.
Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet.
And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method.
If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
How about just having supervised sites with trained trip sitters so that people don’t have the ability (under the influence) to do irreversible things? Perhaps in a therapist’s/doctor’s office.
When you say "hard drugs" are you referring to mushrooms? Where I'm from mushrooms aren't considered a hard drug, heroin and cocaine would be.
Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them.
There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.
And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.
The laws have turned it into something taboo and then people often start consuming psychedelics in a weird and suspicious way to begin with...because it's not legal potentially leading to more and more bad trips.
Meditation is similar, often seemed to be associated with guidance from someone who know how to do it and had experience dealing with some of the potential negatives associated with it. I just read a book by Mingyur Rinpoche and I ended up having a severe existential crisis, that book shocked my being to it's core at the time.
Book and the Netflix series.
observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original comment:
Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma.
Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular.
It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older.
If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
my response:
Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it.
Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren...
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul...
https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk...
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research.
1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia:
- The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks:
- The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) .
- Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health:
- Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
- Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) .
4. General Mental Health Considerations:
- Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.]
- Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
5. Later-Life Considerations:
- The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
IMO, this is kind of asymmetric lazy commenting that wastes other peoples' time. If you want to share something, just link to a article, and leave the LLM bullshit out of it.
From https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
The NIH page sources these studies:
Kessler RC, Birnbaum H, Demler O, Falloon IR, Gagnon E, Guyer M, Howes MJ, Kendler KS, Shi L, Walters E, Wu EQ. The prevalence and correlates of nonaffective psychosis in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication (NCS-R). Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Oct 15;58(8):668-76. PMID: 16023620
Wu EQ, Shi L, Birnbaum H, Hudson T, Kessler R. Annual prevalence of diagnosed schizophrenia in the USA: a claims data analysis approach. Psychol Med. 2006 Nov;36(11):1535-40. PMID: 16907994
Desai, PR, Lawson, KA, Barner, JC, Rascati, KL. Estimating the direct and indirect costs for community-dwelling patients with schizophrenia. Journal of Pharmaceutical Health Services Research, 2013 Jul;4(4):187-194. doi/10.1111/jphs.12027/epdf
Not simultaneously I hope.. that sounds like it would be a rough ride
So 25mg is ~1.5g of dried mushrooms.
Decent dose, but not a "omg I'm one with the universe."
For instance, a "Hero Dose" typically starts at 5g of dried mushrooms, so ~3x the dosage used in the study.
Though it's possible the uptake rate using their dosing mechanism is much higher than "stomach acid digested dried mushrooms."
Throwing this in here as there are a fair few "dude just take drugs" comments and worry they might be the religious types.
Before a controlled high dose Psilocybin experience I "felt" my emotions: Anger, Fear, Frustration.
Afterwards, I gained the ability to observe and "catch" my emotions in-flight. Not sure if it was neuroplasticity induced by the substance, or "you don't know what your brain can do until you know it".
I liken it to previously having Ring 1 access to my thoughts, now I have Ring 0 access.
Definitely persistent: DRAMATIC improvement in my happiness and wellbeing.
YMMV
Risk taking is not something to advise others to practice in. It is for each and every person to evaluate their own risk tolerance and not have them influenced by those who took risks and came out the other side "for the better".
Were they dried mushrooms you ate? Do you trust the provenance of them? If they were a chocolate bar or similar, many of those do not actually have psilocybin or psilocin in them, and are instead using a variety of different research chemicals that are significantly less understood. If it was dried mushrooms, there are a variety of species that induce hallucinogenic effects through other chemicals than what you find in your usual magic mushrooms.
They might have been regular shrooms, of course - people react to things differently - but that's a different enough outcome that I wonder if it wasn't something else entirely.
What are your qualifications to make a claim like that? There hasn't been much clinical research in humans using psilocybin until very recently [1], and they certainly do not cover the range of different species of mushrooms that contain the alkaloids [2].
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11016263/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psilocybin_mushroom_sp...
I know some tech people have been donating to psilocybin research - is there any apparent connection to this study?
It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see big picture generalizations as specific universal truths.
Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously “knowing” something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to overcome. But it is just a feeling.
Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers.
They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls".
It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.
If I am a member of a tribe that uses ceremonial ayhuasca at regular intervals, I will build my relationships around that cycle, so the feeling of awe and understanding corresponds with an actual personal breakthrough or meaningful group event. That's the 10x use case
I almost wonder if all of this is simply because drugs can produce a strong anti-anxiety / euphoric effect, providing a powerful sense of confidence in one's convictions.
Recognizing that confidence and assuredness are not knowledge is not quite the same as those feelings themselves. Though I do recognize this is sort of recursive and cyclical and ultimately there’s nothing but some type of faith to build everything on, including doubt/skepticism.
Feeling "it is just a feeling" is being grounded in reality and affirming your senses and convictions are volatile and shouldn't be trusted.
Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not.
Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago.
I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained.
Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years
The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface yet, but still actively affecting your life from within.
Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.
Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something.
Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.
Culture and science are also powerful benders of reality.
Mushrooms are much gentler and forgiving than LSD when it comes to traumas.
Extrapolation of biological effect based on the receptor affinity of a ligand is a pretty crude hypotheses.