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0 pointstombert1y ago0 comments

No, I don't think that that's good reasoning. They could, if nothing else, make first-party libraries that have a high-level DSL or something that makes it less horrible to use. As it stands it creates a bunch of crappy libraries on top instead of an officially supported API that could also be standardized across operating systems and platforms.

The terrible terrible Vulkan API just kind of feels gatekeepey. They got rid of the only open easy-to-use graphics standard, made NO REPLACEMENT, and then said "oh you should just use this impossible API or let the outside world come up with a fix around it".

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exDM691y ago

Please try again with Vulkan 1.3 and reassess how "terrible" the API is.

And use some high level library like vk-bootstrap to do the boring init work.

Because once it's set up, Vulkan 1.3 is about as easy as OpenGL (if you stick with OpenGL-level stuff).

It is easier than WGPU because the RenderPass stuff required in Vulkan 1.0 (and hence WGPU) is gone, removing a lot of boilerplate code.

Pipeline barriers are the only "complex" thing remaining but even they are somewhat simplified with the right defaults (sharing mode) and simplifications (set stage masks to all commands, overhead is negligible on desktop devices).

Use push descriptors for "bindful" textures, set all your pipelines states dynamic (except blending), and timeline semaphores for sync.

For simple stuff (OpenGL level) it's a pleasure to work with, and you get rid of all the OpenGL quirks.

Complex stuff like bindless texturing and GPU driven rendering is still complex, but that's the same in all APIs.

It can still be a bit verbose and the init code is too much work (but you do it only once), but after it is set up it's quite okay.

And if you want OpenGL, use OpenGL. Zink (OpenGL on Vulkan) guarantees that it will be supported, even if GPU vendors stop keeping their GL drivers up to date (has not happened yet).

pjmlp1y ago

It has happened on Android, version 15 is now making ANGLE the official way to still have OpenGL, given the sore state of Vulkan drivers, it is a yet another move to force OEMs to improve their story.

edflsafoiewq1y ago

It doesn't really make sense to have Khronos maintain nice high-level libraries. There's no evidence they'd be good at it and if you look at their GitHub, they're not particularly good at maintaining actual codebases in the first place. Their commitee/standard-based process works for specs, but I don't think it will work very well for the needs of day-to-day application programmers.

Why do you need Khronos to "bless" a particular library anyway?

Also they didn't get rid of OpenGL. You can still use it. It will probably be the most widely supported graphics API for a long time.

tombertOP1y ago

> It doesn't really make sense to have Khronos maintain nice high-level libraries.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

> There's no evidence they'd be good at it and if you look at their GitHub, they're not particularly good at maintaining actual codebases in the first place.

Well that's another complaint then, but it doesn't detract away from my initial complaints.

> Why do you need Khronos to "bless" a particular library anyway?

Because now we're going to have a million different wrapper libraries to do everything, or you're going to be stuck with the absurd Vulkan API. It was already annoying enough that you had to have different wrappers to abstract the GUI components, now people have to have another mediocre abstraction in addition to the GUI crap.

I suppose you could argue "that's fine", and you're free to have that opinion, but I think it's worse

> Also they didn't get rid of OpenGL. You can still use it. It will probably be the most widely supported graphics API for a long time.

They're not doing new versions of OpenGL. Yes, the drivers will support them for the foreseeable future but they will get increasingly out of date.

johnnyanmac1y ago

>now we're going to have a million different wrapper libraries to do everything, or you're going to be stuck with the absurd Vulkan API.

The more things change...

Fact is that most people will never directly touch such things unless they are a) a graphics programmer at a handful of companies or b) someone like this author doing something more for education than to produce raw business value. our "high level libraries" are Unity and Unreal if you're makinig a game (and some smaller engines), and BGFX et al. if you're making your own small engine. The work is already done without Khronos lifting a finger for implementation.

the recipients of a) are the ones who asked for more control. They are paid pretty well so they have plenty of time to grok the specs compared to a small time creator, so rapid prototyping isn't prioritized.

HelloNurse1y ago

The "first party library" is OpenGL, or if you have special needs OpenGL ES, WebGPU, Metal, DirectX variants, implemented on top of Vulkan.

The "NO REPLACEMENT" is sidelining ugly OpenGL drivers and adopting leaner and more modern Vulkan drivers.

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