> 20 years ago, when I was on the dating market myself, there were still rules of fair play. A young woman who naively dated a handsome man only to discover that he dated several other women simultaneously would be justified to blame him for being dishonest. Today, she would need to feel stupid because she didn't discuss the terms with him.
I distinctly remember having a conversation in like 2018 with my sister. We were both using Tinder at the time. I was operating under the assumption that once you started going out on dates with someone on the app, you stopped using the app and focused on getting to know them. To my chagrin I was informed that this was naive and stupid, and that my sister was currently going on dates with several men at once, and so were all the women on the app I was talking to, and that this was fine and even expected as long as it “wasn’t serious”. She made it clear that unless someone explicitly asked her to be “exclusive” (a high bar to clear) that she would continue to date as she pleased and not feel any obligation to even mention it to any prospective partner.
Women can’t expect fair play but neither can men. Seems like it’s a race to the bottom.
Overall it seems like the pressure is mounting on men to do more with less, but I could be biased in that regard.
Pre dating apps the norm in my part of the world would be to see someone approx 1-3 times. After that, if you continued dating, it would be taken as implicit that they are at least a front runner and the exclusive conversation wouldn't be far off.
Having said that, I don't think that dating apps are a good way to meet serious partners. The overlap between people who use Tinder and people who don't engage in casual sex is extremely low.
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Edit - I see your point about whether this is different between men and women. But I do think it's weird to use the term "fair play" in this context!
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This group (I would expect) is a minority and (I would expect is) getting smaller. If you are this kind of person then more communication isn’t necessarily going to help you find a partner who you feel is truly invested in you. Your dating pool is still shrinking and you still feel left out of the cultural zeitgeist. People will just be more open about how they aren’t compatible with you.
I don’t know what the solution is, I’m kind of just rambling. I do know I’ve spoken with several friends about this and the general consensus is that dating apps are making it harder (not easier) for them to find partners by fundamentally changing the game.
Also, every time I post about this on HN (which has been a couple times now) people absolutely leap to tell me why I’m a bad person or something
20 years ago (a generation[1]) is very different from only 6 years ago. Your anecdote seems to reinforce the author's point.
* Men are angry they are facing rejection.
* Women are angry they are still subject to abuse, chattel status and risk of Sexual violence.
They just aren't equivalent.
That said. As a non participant I don't think I like some of the implicit test qualities in online exchanges i see on reddit. "Sorry you used LOL so you are bad. Bye" is .. well I guess it's a noise filter but it's kind of silly.
Is the problem a version of transactional/relational mismatch? Only partly. I would love to understand if the dating spaces where women must make the first move have a different problem by scale or intensity. (I stress purely out of interest. I read blind date stories because they're entertaining not because I need a date)
Those lists are not equivalent, but this seems like a caricature of the issues men face, rather than an actual good-faith list. Unless it's not a Western perspective (given "chattel status"), in which case it would be good to know where your experience is based.
My understanding of the article is: feminism happened, which caused women to become more unpleasant. It's not clear though why shifting social norms - and which specific norms, relevant to this topic? - lead to that becoming. Was author implying that somehow society before served as the unpleasant filter removing bad behavior from men, and feminism relaxed that society's norm, so now women have to deal with it themselves?
> What happens when everything is allowed, as long as it is consensual? Then the burden to say “I consent” or “I do not consent” lies squarely with the individual. Individual women need to radiate “I do not consent”.
The restrictions on women's freedom and especially stigma/taboo around their real or perceived sexual interactions limited the "attack surface" for harassment as well. Now that women may accept or initiate sexual encounters (theoretically) free of stigma, they also must repel all unwanted advances, when previously some of these would have been prevented through social norms.
I think this is maybe a little optimistic about to what extent these norms actually prevented unwanted negative interactions, and between whom. But it seems like an overall accurate observation to me.
What makes a slave these days, getting your own napkins at starbucks?
Mens displeasure is so easily dismissed, it says a lot about how society as a whole thinks about the matter.
It depends, and situations are quite possible when e.g. it's unpleasant bordering with abuse.
(1) It made me wonder if there was an actually scientific way of tracking these things over the years. I imagine there's something buried in social surveys? It wouldn't be the same but might be a little informative.
(2) I was expecting a discussion of a different topic, and am not really sure she addressed the comment. The comment explicitly begins with "I'm referring to attitudes while dating, not how receptive someone is to having sex" and she seemed to discuss receptivity to casual sex.
This is fine, it's not really a criticism although I think the topic she seemed to lead with and that the commenter was mentioning seemed more interesting to me. I'm not sure I agree or disagree that dating norms have changed, but if it did it would be extremely interesting to me.
I've read a lot of women mention that when or where men are being pushy or manipulative, they tend to be more defensive or proactively self-protective like she's saying. I don't think I've read as much about an idea that women are "playing harder to get" in an established (in a broad sense) dating relationship. I'm a bit skeptical but it's interesting to think about changes over time in these kinds of things. At least in the US I feel like the focus is a lot on changes in cultural norms around sex, and less so on relationships per se.
>> Laws against begging are a case in point. Banning people from asking for money they might desperately need is unpleasant. It also prevents the minority that feel good from giving money to beggars from doing what they like. Laws against begging moves the obligation to be unpleasant from individuals to society as a whole.
LOL, this took an interesting turn. Begging for money is not equivalent to begging for sex, money supplies food essential for life. Nonetheless, I see the point being made, should we have rules where men are not allowed to flirt with women? Punishable by law. Yes, it will be abused, but it will also force men to find ways to cope.
More salient question: Who in society should take the burden to cope with bad actors?
I was on a work trip- a few years ago- still fairly newlywed and no kids. We had different offices, and I was making the most of it to get to know people better from the other office. Drinks were involved, it was a big celebration event. Anyways, I was hitting it off really great with someone in another division that I didn’t get a lot of exposure to, but she used the software I was working on. She looked to be about my age. I dont remember what we were talking about but at one point she stopped me, held up her hand, and said “Im sorry, but I’m married”. I was absolutely flabbergasted. Of course I held up my hand and said I was married too- but it really killed the conversation. I absolutely was not hitting on her, but apparently being nice and interested in what she had to say was (incorrectly) detected as a pickup attempt. Anyways, ever since then I’m careful to not be too friendly with other women or to quickly bring up the topic of kids.
This brings me to another topic: kids. I absolutely adore my kids. I love playing with them. I love taking them to the playground. I am so terrified around other people’s kids. Some kid needs help at a playground? Not getting any from me. I want to be nice to other kids, but I’m absolutely terrified someone is going to accuse me of trying to abduct them or something. I feel like a man being kind to kids other then his own is absolutely unacceptable today, and that makes me really sad.
I think being nice to your kid's friends is perfectly fine, they know you, their parents know you and they're most likely there with their kids. I have a kid and am friendly to my kid's friends and it has never been an issue.
All of the things that the author speaks about are reasons why men like to accompany their wives on trips, don't like their partners to go out drinking without them, etc. We know how people behave and act accordingly.
Yet there seems to be a strong effort to paint such things as some sort of rank unfairness.
The world is always, always going to direct attention towards nubile young women.
I applaud the author by the way for acting in a mature manner. It feels rare nowadays to see a young woman or man with their head screwed on, who realise that this won't all last forever. Settling down early is better.
I had quite a few matches cancel hours before meeting up, or just not show up. I had a match meet me at a concert ( I know, bad idea), and she spent most of night hitting on my married friend and crying in the corner. It's really discouraging, depressing and dehumanizing. I do not remember it being like this when I was in my 20's.
I am 42 now and used the sites from the time my divorce was finalized in 2021 until last summer. It wasn't all bad, I dated a few matches for more than a few weeks. The main problem is that in my experience, a lot of women will exaggerate their hobbies and interests on their profile to attract potential matches. It did really seem like many people were on the apps because they don't have time to date or did not have social lives/hobbies.
Based on the lack of success, I decided to stop wasting time on the apps and focus exclusively on expanding my social circle, volunteering, participating in social groups activities and going places where I could meet people. I've made a lot of new friends with interesting hobbies. You still get rejected IRL, but I didn't find anyone to be overly unpleasant about it. I ended up dating a few women over the course of a few months before I ended up with the girl I am with now.
Incidentally, everyone who I dated during this period had also given up on the apps and remarked on their toxic nature. Dating apps are not made for dating, they exist solely for making the site money by selling boosts and premium memberships in exchange for access to the product (women).
