Anti-crime humps in medieval Venice (opens in new tab)

(visitvenezia.eu)

119 pointsphront1y ago31 comments

31 comments

Huh, an early example of "hostile architecture," although one I could get behind more readily. (Or not, as the case may be...)

Ajay-p1y ago

Some of them might provide a nice place to sit and rest.

maushu1y ago

I always thought this was only to avoid public urination. I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.

0823498723498721y ago

A nice example of Hegelian Dialectic (if we're being XIX) or Robinson Resolution (if we're being XX), involving public defecation being a crime, occurred recently in Catalunya:

Thesis: the guy pooping is a traditional element of the nativity scene

Antithesis: government sponsored nativities shouldn't depict crime

Synthesis: keep the guy, but add a police officer, writing the guy a ticket

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surroundin...

jadbox1y ago

This is such a Zizek-esk kind of example of the dialectic, but I haven't heard him reference this as a classic example.

sdwr1y ago

That's so stupid! I love it!

bckr1y ago

What do you mean by XIX and XX?

Thanks for the link to the caganer!

Holy crap, that is amazing.

2 more replies

hayst4ck1y ago

> I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.

Having now done a bit more research than I care to admit to, this book, particularly the page 14 sample, suggests nuance rather than pretext, particularly that reduction of public urination was a secondary benefit that became a primary benefit after public lighting:

https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065

quietbritishjim1y ago

Like London's later urine deflectors

https://web.archive.org/web/20231001094443/https://londonist...

spenczar51y ago

I would to read more about this “crime saturated” period in Venice’s history. I don’t even know when it is! Any pointers?

hayst4ck1y ago

If you go to a university's library, the librarians there are frequently quite good at least finding sources that can lead you to other sources if not directly answering your question. If all else fails, they can probably help you find an expert to e-mail.

I took the liberty of stalking you. I bet you if you e-mailed/visited either of the two people with "Italian Renaissance" here, they could probably directly help you answer your question: https://history.washington.edu/people/faculty

I spent a bit of time trying to answer that question (because I enjoy the exercise of it), and it looks like this would probably be an easier question for a speaker of Italian to answer.

I eventually found this book: https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065

The sample pages of that book suggest there is not very much authoritative information on them and I didn't see an earliest known date of construction of them.

https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history...

That seems to suggest the middle of the 15th century is the answer to your question since the profession of codega appeared at the same time they were built according to the first article.

This seems to be relevant too: https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en

spenczar51y ago

Wow, thanks for sharing the research!

thsksbd1y ago

I would imagine her entire history to be crime ridden. Port cities are never too good, especially rich ones.

orthoxerox1y ago

There are urine deflectors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector all over Europe. Norwich in particular has a lot of them.

ndsipa_pomu1y ago

I'd rather effort was put into providing public toilets and urinals - public urination is the symptom of not enough facilities.

fasa991y ago

I was recently in Amsterdam (you know, the place where they said "welp we'll never fully outlaw prostitution & drugs so let's allow but regulate") and appreciated a series of very public urinals. Which I assume follows the same logic "people are going to pee on the street no matter what, let's give them a place to help control it" - I quite like the idea that acknowledging certain human traits are essentially a force of nature, so why not redirect that firehose towards a more tasteful target than impossibly try to stop it.

See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee_curl

Chris20481y ago

Shout out to Dublin, that closed all its Victorian public inner-city toilets b/c it couldn't be bothered to police them (much as it doesn't police ASB anywhere), shifting responsibility to local businesses, most of which are now "Toilets are for customers only" as a result..

1 more reply

Mawr1y ago

Or even simpler - build more green spaces with grass, shrubbery and trees. Peeing on those is harmless and they provide other significant benefits as well.

thih91y ago

The article mentions that too, although as a secondary explanation for some reason.

> it's said that the inclined casts of mortar also had the task to maintain a certain public decorum and therefore prevent Venetians from urinating in the corners of the calli.

mhitza1y ago

I rather buy the idea that the secondary explanation is actually the primary reason. In the first picture you can clearly see such a structure in a corner that doesn't connect to any kind of street/alley. Thus, I personally, don't buy the primary reason. Of course, unless that specific spot was made much later in time.

xg151y ago

> Having the function of anti-crime and urinal deterrent as well as an educational tool for citizens

The "education" being when someone pisses on it and finds out what happens?

ransom15381y ago

Eh. Those look like anti-pee systems to me. I bet it was an official take "to reduce crime" - but those things are all slanted down, to push pee on your foot. And when I need to pee corners always catch my eye.

bcraven1y ago

"However, the "antibandito humps" had a second usefulness, so much so that it received a second name: that of the "pissotte" or "pissabraghe": in addition to preventing criminals from hiding from their prey, it's said that the inclined casts of mortar also had the task to maintain a certain public decorum and therefore prevent Venetians from urinating in the corners of the calli."

bombcar1y ago

I suspect it was the primary purpose, and anything else sounds like cleaned up reasons for publication.

As it wouldn't be hard to stand on one in the shadows.

rpeden1y ago

The article mentioned this was another reason for their existence.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

31 comments

SamBam1y ago

Huh, an early example of "hostile architecture," although one I could get behind more readily. (Or not, as the case may be...)

Ajay-p1y ago

Some of them might provide a nice place to sit and rest.

maushu1y ago

I always thought this was only to avoid public urination. I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.

0823498723498721y ago

A nice example of Hegelian Dialectic (if we're being XIX) or Robinson Resolution (if we're being XX), involving public defecation being a crime, occurred recently in Catalunya:

Thesis: the guy pooping is a traditional element of the nativity scene

Antithesis: government sponsored nativities shouldn't depict crime

Synthesis: keep the guy, but add a police officer, writing the guy a ticket

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surroundin...

jadbox1y ago

This is such a Zizek-esk kind of example of the dialectic, but I haven't heard him reference this as a classic example.

sdwr1y ago

That's so stupid! I love it!

bckr1y ago

What do you mean by XIX and XX?

Thanks for the link to the caganer!

Holy crap, that is amazing.

2 more replies

hayst4ck1y ago

> I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.

https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065

quietbritishjim1y ago

Like London's later urine deflectors

https://web.archive.org/web/20231001094443/https://londonist...

spenczar51y ago

I would to read more about this “crime saturated” period in Venice’s history. I don’t even know when it is! Any pointers?

hayst4ck1y ago

I spent a bit of time trying to answer that question (because I enjoy the exercise of it), and it looks like this would probably be an easier question for a speaker of Italian to answer.

I eventually found this book: https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065

The sample pages of that book suggest there is not very much authoritative information on them and I didn't see an earliest known date of construction of them.

https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history...

That seems to suggest the middle of the 15th century is the answer to your question since the profession of codega appeared at the same time they were built according to the first article.

This seems to be relevant too: https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en

spenczar51y ago

Wow, thanks for sharing the research!

thsksbd1y ago

I would imagine her entire history to be crime ridden. Port cities are never too good, especially rich ones.

orthoxerox1y ago

There are urine deflectors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector all over Europe. Norwich in particular has a lot of them.

ndsipa_pomu1y ago

I'd rather effort was put into providing public toilets and urinals - public urination is the symptom of not enough facilities.

fasa991y ago

See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee_curl

Chris20481y ago

1 more reply

Mawr1y ago

Or even simpler - build more green spaces with grass, shrubbery and trees. Peeing on those is harmless and they provide other significant benefits as well.

thih91y ago

The article mentions that too, although as a secondary explanation for some reason.

> it's said that the inclined casts of mortar also had the task to maintain a certain public decorum and therefore prevent Venetians from urinating in the corners of the calli.

mhitza1y ago

xg151y ago

> Having the function of anti-crime and urinal deterrent as well as an educational tool for citizens

The "education" being when someone pisses on it and finds out what happens?

ransom15381y ago

bcraven1y ago

bombcar1y ago

I suspect it was the primary purpose, and anything else sounds like cleaned up reasons for publication.

As it wouldn't be hard to stand on one in the shadows.

rpeden1y ago

The article mentioned this was another reason for their existence.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse