undefined | Better HN

story

0 pointsTijdreiziger2y ago0 comments

> Edit: One super interesting aspect is that to speak fluent native English you have to do it wrong. Californians, for example, don’t use the plural contraction. You have to say “there’s many options” instead of “there are many options”. Otherwise you sound like a weirdo.

You’re viewing it the wrong way around. L1 speakers almost never use formalized grammar rules (especially not in everyday speech). Instead, the rules are formulated post-hoc based on the way the language is actually spoken.

In a sense, there’s no ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’ language use, only successful or unsuccessful attempts at communication.

For this reason, I find the topic of input-based language learning interesting. The basic idea is that the only true way to acquire a language is by getting a lot of input (i.e. immersion), not by studying grammar rules.

(Disclaimer: not a linguist.)

0 comments

Asraelite2y ago

> never use formalized grammar rules

> the rules are formulated post-hoc

Not sure what you mean by this. This post-hoc formulation is how you define formal grammar rules, at least in a modern linguistic approach.

If the grammar rules you're referring to are nonsense prescriptivist things like "don't end a sentence with a preposition" that you get taught in school, then yeah you can completely disregard them.

It is possible to codify the actual grammar of a language as it is spoken, and reading these rules is very helpful for learning a language, but this kind of accurate description of grammar is something you're more likely to find in academic papers than school textbooks.

TijdreizigerOP2y ago

I’m referring to the way language students are taught, which is usually in a classroom setting involving lots of grammar drills.

As a personal example, when studying German in high school, I had to rotely memorize charts for article declension [1], prepositions [2], etc. Being able to regurgitate these charts helped me pass standardized tests, but they didn’t actually improve my ability to speak German.

Similarly, students of English are encouraged to painstakingly study rules such as those differentiating ‘I’, ‘my’, ‘me’, ‘mine’ and ‘myself’. [3] Personally, I learned English through immersion instead, acquiring these rules subconsciously rather than consciously studying them!

This is what input-based learning gets at. The theory goes that understanding input, and not conscious learning, is the only way to increase linguistic competence. [4]

(again: not a linguist, any errors are mine)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_declension#Articles

[2] https://www.fluentin3months.com/german-prepositions/

[3] https://www.espressoenglish.net/i-my-me-mine-myself/

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse