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0 pointssneak2y ago0 comments

The lightning network works great, as does Ethereum.

The incumbents successfully lobbied to get easy on-ramps to this competing system regulated basically out of existence. It’s a tragic story.

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camgunz2y ago

You can't really use lightning/Ethereum without using an exchange (a big middleman) to convert your fiat to BTC/ETH, because doing it without KYC etc. is money laundering. I don't really think this is incumbents lobbying, I think it's law enforcement saying, "the way we track organized crime is through money, so you can't do this". Crypto advocates know this, because a big selling point they always bring up is "spend money freely without regulation", which phrased another way is "buy/sell things your government doesn't want you to" which is the definition of organized crime--the only difference here is scale.

sneakOP2y ago

There are many occasions where there are completely legal reasons you need or want to transfer money that your government nevertheless does not want you to.

If you are innocent, but accused of a crime, paying a defense attorney is high on that list. The government attorneys would much prefer you not be able to do that.

Donating money to legal organizations that threaten the status quo is another case; you may remember the Wikileaks banking blockade, which happened without any charges being filed against anyone, in response to journalism that some people didn’t like.

The burden of proof for losing access to one’s electronic assets presently is approximately zero. It’s guilty until proven innocent. Proving one’s innocence, unsurprisingly, requires money.

In 2011 I gave a talk at the CCC about how censorship resistant payments are an essential prerequisite to a free society. If you lose the ability to make legal payments the state does not approve of, you lose your basic liberty. You may be interested in seeing it if you care about these things, which I of course think are relevant to everyone.

https://media.ccc.de/v/cccamp11-4591-financing_the_revolutio...

camgunz2y ago

Oh hey, I'm not arguing for less privacy in payments. GP was saying "tell me about how I get some cryptocurrency in a practical way without big middlemen" and there isn't one because of how states define crime and money laundering. I do think it's kind of a tricky problem, but I'm not really defending the regime here nor am I saying that it's actually important to fund things like Wikileaks (which, to disclaim my bias here, I'm not a fan of). I'm sympathetic to the idea that commerce is a basic human right, but I think it very quickly runs into "can I buy black market goods/services" (which are basically like, drugs, guns, human trafficking, violence-for-hire) and almost everyone says "no". I don't see how crypto gets us closer to "you can fund Wikileaks" while not moving us closer to "you can buy a human slave". I think for that we have to look to democratic action to change the laws.

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DonHopkins2y ago

Yeah, I'm sure that's how SBF feels too, but now he's in jail where he belongs. But that's just good government regulation and law enforcement working the way they're supposed to, and I wouldn't exactly call his lobbying "successful". It's SUPPOSED to feel tragic for the people who tried to do it, and got caught.

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camgunz2y ago

sneakOP2y ago

There are many occasions where there are completely legal reasons you need or want to transfer money that your government nevertheless does not want you to.

If you are innocent, but accused of a crime, paying a defense attorney is high on that list. The government attorneys would much prefer you not be able to do that.

The burden of proof for losing access to one’s electronic assets presently is approximately zero. It’s guilty until proven innocent. Proving one’s innocence, unsurprisingly, requires money.

https://media.ccc.de/v/cccamp11-4591-financing_the_revolutio...

camgunz2y ago

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DonHopkins2y ago

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