undefined | Better HN

0 pointschromoblob2y ago0 comments

> Especially with Large Language Models, we see how essential a large knowledge corpus is for generating new variations.

I don't see it, sufficiency doesn't entail necessity.

> It's important to remember that the concepts of "Expert systems" and "heuristics" did not work on their own back in the day

Expert systems are about automation of decision. I talk not about automation, but just a minimal, basic dependency on culture as opposed to complete dependency and no hope of novel thinking outside of it.

> Progress typically requires a societal-level effort in any field.

I want to know how this requirement would be quantified. Which society do you need for a given amount of progress?

> "individualism" is incompatible with reality

Why can't one, in principle, recreate some design on their own that they lack, of less complexity than rocket science or AGI?

0 comments

atomicnature2y ago

> complete dependency and no hope of novel thinking outside of it.

Where have I said "there is no hope of novel thinking out of it"? (Re: Most thought is borrowed) I am simply saying not a single thought is entirely yours. There's always something external mixed in, stuff from society. Thought is always dependent. That means, you can be the co-author of an idea, but not the sole author. Having sole author is merely a simplification device, not a realistic description of the situation.

By the way, I still have not made the ultimate challenge here (since this is HN, filled with no-nonsense, individualistic hackers): what is referred to as "I", is also an idea delivered by society. Therefore, this whole conversation is thought talking to thought, and not chromoblob vs atomicnature.

chromoblobOP2y ago

Okay, since to develop the thinking skill, one needs to exercise a lot in a man-made environment, I agree that thinking is dependent on it and the basic vocabulary.

However, the dependency ends here. If you just want, you can analyze, deconstruct, modify or synthesize any memes at any level beyond the level of your primitives (given enough time).

About the definition of boundary of mind, I agree that it should be arbitrary and minds are compositional in space.

atomicnature2y ago

> However, the dependency ends here. If you just want, you can analyze, deconstruct, modify or synthesize any memes at any level beyond the level of your primitives (given enough time).

Thought Experiment: Say an isolated child was given the primitives of your choice, and nothing more. What's the likelihood that it'll invent calculus on its own during its lifetime? Or any other significant human discoveries/inventions. Will it figure out human flight on its own?

Leave that. Say there are no teachers/industry, except just all the textbooks. Still what is the likelihood of it teaching itself calculus or how to build a flying machine based on mere reading material?

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 pointschromoblob2y ago0 comments

> Especially with Large Language Models, we see how essential a large knowledge corpus is for generating new variations.

I don't see it, sufficiency doesn't entail necessity.

> It's important to remember that the concepts of "Expert systems" and "heuristics" did not work on their own back in the day

> Progress typically requires a societal-level effort in any field.

I want to know how this requirement would be quantified. Which society do you need for a given amount of progress?

> "individualism" is incompatible with reality

Why can't one, in principle, recreate some design on their own that they lack, of less complexity than rocket science or AGI?

0 comments

atomicnature2y ago

> complete dependency and no hope of novel thinking outside of it.

chromoblobOP2y ago

Okay, since to develop the thinking skill, one needs to exercise a lot in a man-made environment, I agree that thinking is dependent on it and the basic vocabulary.

However, the dependency ends here. If you just want, you can analyze, deconstruct, modify or synthesize any memes at any level beyond the level of your primitives (given enough time).

About the definition of boundary of mind, I agree that it should be arbitrary and minds are compositional in space.

atomicnature2y ago

> However, the dependency ends here. If you just want, you can analyze, deconstruct, modify or synthesize any memes at any level beyond the level of your primitives (given enough time).

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse