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0 pointsfeoren2y ago0 comments

> You can always ask for different terms and walk away if they don’t agree, start your own company, or change industries to one where companies are willing to negotiate.

I suspect you have lived a very privileged life if you really believe these options are actually open to most employees in the U.S. Switch industries? Start your own company? Those are both extreme life-altering multi-year responses to losing PTO payout, and only work for people who have major safety nets and support in their lives. Companies pull this bullshit because they know they can get away with it. Guess what: they're right. I'm glad you are in such a state of privilege that you can spend 4 years going back to college and switching industries without going into massive debt and without suffering from the loss of income during that time, but you are extremely lucky to be in that position. Do not assume others are lazy and/or stupid and/or bad negotiators because they can't. Negotiating is not about shaking hands harder, it's about having leverage, and 98% of U.S. workers have none.

> negotiate better working conditions next time you get hired

These were not the working conditions at the time I was hired. None of this was in any contract I signed. Companies change this stuff after-the-fact all the time. What are you going to do, hire an employment lawyer? You'd poison your own drinking well, potentially forever, with the possible upside of being the only employee in your company that actually get PTO paid out? Come on. Nobody is doing this. Companies pull this bullshit because they can.

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abduhl2y ago

I grew up what you’d call “lower middle class.” Your suspicions are incorrect. I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt. I know how difficult it is and how expensive it is, but the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online. Just like you, the companies I worked at (and owned a portion of) changed or the industries I worked in changed, but unlike you I left (and forced them to cash out my PTO because, contrary to what you think, you do have an enforceable employment contract even if it’s in the form of a benefits package, an employee handbook, or even just “that’s what the company normally does” at that point in time) after realizing that the change was permanent rather than taking to the internet to complain while continuing to pull an easy paycheck.

It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it and the people who tell you how privileged you are almost always are even more so themselves. Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits?

feorenOP2y ago

> I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt.

And you're actually suggesting this as a solution to others? That they lose years of income and take on $300k in non-dischargeable debt because their employer acted like a dick, in the vain hope that with this new degree, their new employers won't? Sorry, but "just spend years and take on $300k in student loan debt like I did" is just not compelling advice.

> the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online

You're significantly upping the "personal attack" game here. You could just as easily say that I am the one with strong convictions, continuing to work at a company that treats its employees like shit because I actually do believe in the work that I'm doing there.

> It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it

It's strange to you that the people who claim something is difficult are the ones who haven't been able to do it?

> Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits?

Not interested in a hard-knocks pissing contest. I assumed you wouldn't spend $300k in a game of Musical Diplomas in the hope of avoiding being treated the way most people in the U.S. are treated by most companies unless you had a significant safety net. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by saying: no, you added it onto an already difficult life. My point is that this is not good advice.

abduhl2y ago

Let’s go through the comment thread here again:

1. Someone asked what protections an employee could expect to receive from an employment contract in a right to work state.

2. I responded that right to work is not related to employment contracts but to unions and listed a number of protections and benefits regularly covered by employment contracts.

3. You came in saying that, anecdotally, the benefits are either non-existent in your industry or only available to top executives and ending with a sort of anti-“corporate overlord” conspiracy about how every term in an employment contract is a negative to an employee because the employer writes the contract.

4. I told you that contracts are bilateral and therefore you should negotiate, start your own business, or quit.

5. You responded with the first actual personal attack by stating that even suggesting that someone negotiate, start a business, or quit meant that I came from a life of luxury and privilege and how my supposed privilege blinds me to the cost of quitting an industry before again going on an rant based on your specific situation (that you refuse to leave) and generalizing your refusal to negotiate, start your own business, or leave to “nobody” negotiating, starting their own company, or leaving.

6. I responded to your personal attack by noting that I don’t come from privilege, that I have changed industries, that it is possible to finance it via student loans, and that I have been in similar situations as you and taken a different path. I noted that some people’s actions match their espoused beliefs while noting that you don’t appear to be one of those peoples. I then made a snarky comment about how you seem to be the type to deem something hard before even trying it and to cry privilege while you stay at your cushy white collar job.

7. You responded shifting your argument from “nobody” does this to “nobody smart” (obviously, because you’re smart and you haven’t done it) does this (a strange argument on a website like HN given its relationship with startups…) and crying about personal attacks. Oh, and apparently you really love your job after all despite all the prior ranting about how much you hate your job. And apparently you don’t want to get into a who-has-privilege argument with me after all now that you know my background sort of undercuts your entire argument.

1 more reply

OkayPhysicist2y ago

You're on a forum for tech workers and tech entrepreneurs. Going "you're privileged, gotcha!" doesn't carry much water when it's true of literally the entire target demographic. You are right, we are lucky: our industry is in demand, so don't squander it by pretending you're up against insurmountable odds at the negotiating table. All you're doing by rolling over for your employer is weakening everybody else's negotiating position.

If my employer wants to change the terms of my employment, I absolutely would make sure I actually agreed to the changes before doing anything else. If I didn't I'd refuse to sign anything, and leave the employer with the choice to either A) fire me (under the terms of the old contract) B) leave me with the old agreement C) fire me under the new terms and get sued or D) come back with a better offer.

This is tech. There's no shortage of jobs for people with any experience whatsoever. That's leverage in not getting railed in your employment terms.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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abduhl2y ago

feorenOP2y ago

> I’ve switched industries twice in my life to the tune of nearly a third a million in student loan debt.

> the actual strength of some people’s personal convictions matches the strength of the convictions you pretend to have online

> It’s strange that the people who tell you how difficult something is are almost always people who haven’t done it

It's strange to you that the people who claim something is difficult are the ones who haven't been able to do it?

> Tell me, when’s the last time you swung a hammer or pulled unemployment benefits?

abduhl2y ago

Let’s go through the comment thread here again:

1. Someone asked what protections an employee could expect to receive from an employment contract in a right to work state.

2. I responded that right to work is not related to employment contracts but to unions and listed a number of protections and benefits regularly covered by employment contracts.

4. I told you that contracts are bilateral and therefore you should negotiate, start your own business, or quit.

1 more reply

OkayPhysicist2y ago

This is tech. There's no shortage of jobs for people with any experience whatsoever. That's leverage in not getting railed in your employment terms.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse