For now, I try to give him a mostly screen free childhood, with occasional "treats" of dinosaur documentaries on rainy days.
How do you manage?
My point here is not that we’ve done anything right, or wrong, or to emulate. Instead, I say this point out the I’ve had to learn to worry about, and address, the real issues - when they become real. There are not enough hours in the day to worry about all theoretical mistakes I’m making as a a parent. I choose to focus on the actual, observable, issues we are having.
For what it’s worth - many of our neighbors have kids that play all the time on the Switch, have phones, and watch TV every car ride anywhere, and those kids are LOVELY. They aren’t screen demons - and they aren’t behind in math, reading, eating vegetables… I think it could be it doesn’t really matter as much as it gets focused on.
At any rate it matters a whole lot less than loving them, and figuring out what works for YOU and for THEM - and that’s something it took me way too long to learn.
My oldest just turned 7, and I have slowly learned that the kids do best and are happiest not when I set them up with the best possible environment or activities or rules or whatever, but when I’m consistently and actively engaged with them and considerate of their needs and perspectives as much as my own. Sometimes I worry that they might get too much screen time, but sometimes I go to wake them up and discover that they’ve snuck out of bed to quietly read together.
Address problems that need addressing as they arise, but try to remember that, on the balance, things turn out ok.
And to the second, I remember reading old Wodehouse "school stories" where the teachers were complaining about the students wasting their time with worthless "book time" reading such useless works as David Copperfield. O tempora, o mores!
Not to downplay everything you said, because that's a great mentality to have towards technology, but regarding this point, the problem with technology is not that kids are spending too much time in front of a screen. The problem is with the content they're consuming, and the people they're exposed to online. There's a lot of potential harm from being manipulated by advertising, to seeing disturbing content like Elsagate, to getting absorbed in the vapid and obnoxious culture of influencers, to meeting someone who might actually harm them.
It's good to be pragmatic about how children use technology, as they will be surrounded by it during their lifetime, but it's also important to have strict controls, boundaries and discussions with them so that they understand the very real threats that technology enables.
Maybe I focus on this more because younger me was denied video games for many years, until I bought my own consoles/pc and got to "eat the whole cake".
I really don't want to reproduce that pattern.
I'm now an engineer with a bunch of friends and socially well adjusted. But then each child is unique and each situation is unique, most kids in my neighborhood weren't allowed outside after dark, in winter it was basically dark when we got home from school also i was an only child so didn't have any siblings to keep me entertained, that leaves a lot of time for Homework, TV, Video Games, Reading etc.
Also it rained a lot so you were stuck inside a lot. In fact when the weather was good you were desperate to get out of the house because you'd be stuck inside so often.
If i were parenting today i might have to follow a different approach to my parents but only because i might want to curate the games my kids would play personally i actually think the right video game is just as if not more valuable than books. Learning mechanics, developing strategies, reacting to changing and unfavorable circumstances, teamwork. are great life skills. I do think i learned a fair bit playing Starcraft and Counter Strike.
Also would love to hear what everyone else is doing!
YouTube is an interesting one. Like the Internet itself, there is some really great stuff, but letting them roam is a recipe for disaster. YouTube Kids has gotten better over the years but nothing's perfect. On one hand, I didn't want to block YT completely but I also wanted to be able to approve anything they watch. So, I did what any other programmer dad would do in this situation and built what I wanted.
They now have a permission layer on top of Safari (as an extension that cannot be disabled when coupled with Safari's content moderation setting). I set Safari to only allow YouTube and any channel they try and view that I have not approved will require them to send a permission request to my phone. That "permission request" is a button + them coming to me with "Hey Dad, I sent you a request". It's worked quite well in our home and has opened a nice dialog about what they are trying to watch and why. I made it public if any other parents are interested -- https://www.sunscreenapp.com/
I think the fact many of you have deeply thought about the topic is amazing, but what I wonder is if you, by restricting devices so heavily (and it's seemingly only about tables and smartphones), also take away any chance at kids getting proficient with computers?
Like, you know, the knowledge people here have: How computers work, hardware, programming.
Maybe it's just not mentioned here, but I see a lot about avoiding social media - which is fine, I get it - and not a lot about teaching kids how technology works.
When I was a kid, I sat at a computer (with my dad) with 3 and the internet starting at 5 or 6.
That said, the internet was very different in the 2000s. It lead to the current hobbies I have and I'm so happy I've had that chance. I, for example, experimented with my own phpMyBB forums at 14 because forums where cool back then.
I've seen reports of more and more younger people having no idea what a file system even is because they have never seen one before because they mainly grow up on tablets, and now they seem to have less of a chance to learn about tech at all because they've barely seen any tech - except smart devices - until they're teenagers.
Which, again, I understand completely. There are dangers online nowadays and I'd want to protect my kids, as well, but while reading all your posts, I felt a bit sad because it also felt like it may take something away, too.
Not an easy problem to solve. How does the crowd here see this?
I think it depends which social media, and this needs to be audited. I was using forums/IRC from about 14(and these are pre-cursors to social media) and there was benefit to being able to discuss things that you might not have been able to IRL.
I think the issues come with image based social media where it's not about exchanging ideas/talking about things but with "living your best life" and curating your public image.
> predators use online spaces to find and groom children. > each your kids to never ever take an inappropriate photo of their bodies.
I think in this day and age it's essential to teach kids how to stay safe online (once they reach an age where the internet is an appropriate place to be). I see people talk all the time about the internet being a dangerous place and it needs to be restricted but not as much about how to manage this.
i remember many discussions about meeting someone form the internet and how to do it safely. i.e. Get a verification photo with today's date, meet in a high-traffic public space, tell a friend (or your parents) where you are going and who you expect to be meeting, ask for a check in at a specific time etc.
I see the benefits of this in theory but in practice I worry that it will just cause more IRL bullying and isolation.
And even then, being excluded from having normal access to a phone still isolates them from "normal" people. Everyone pulls out their phone and all the phoneless person can do is either sit there in jealous silence like a loser or try to get everyone to stop playing on their phones when they're around them (also like a loser).
Overall not an ideal situation.
I have to disagree. There was plenty of bullying and isolation for kids before social media, before the Internet and, I'm sure, even before the printing press.
Kids can be very cruel to each other. This is (mostly) due to an understanding of the world that only includes a limited understanding of cause and effect.
That's not new, nor is it particularly profound. And it has nothing to do with computers or "social media."
Avoid a real smartphone for as long as possible. 9th grade would be ideal. Give other ways to communicate - smart watcj, dumb phone, Discord on laptop.
This is about manners, literacy, etiquette, and skills. The medium is not the message, etc.
I would type more but I am on the other side of the line now, on my smartphone while I wait for my son at the orthodontist. :)
Learning apps or anything that requires imagination have no or very few screen time limits.
100% consumption like Netflix, D+ etc have hard daily limits and the kids can get more by doing something that doesn't require a screen.
Now we're at a level where the media viewing very rarely occupies them a 100%, in most cases there's an iPad or a computer playing a kids show for the 42nd time just as a background noise while they're doing crafts or something else.
Or searches. With very young kids, you never know what they're going to look for and find. I'd be wary. For as little time I expect they'd be on a laptop, I am more tempted to set up a "family computer" in an open space like the old days. Really, still don't know how I'd navigate this one because it's a real concern.
Beyond that, they are going to encounter randos and need to build the toolkit for navigating those situations. Don't interrogate but try to casually chat with them sometimes about what they've been up to: anything cool, anything weird, any new hangouts.
I don't know what kids and parents are doing today with minimum age requirements for chat app usage (13 is the minimum in most places but this seems to be ignored frequently) but pre-teens might still to talk to you about weird things they encounter. You will become less cool to talk to when they are in high school but they'll still absorb anecdotes even if they scoff and roll their eyes throughout the entire conversation. If you're concerned and they don't like talking about it, an older sibling, cousin, friend's older kid, might be able to casually check how things are going without triggering the "ew, parents" reflex.
One thing I'd like to respectfully point out to our community, which I personally think is going to snowball into a full blown health crisis, is children's posture while using tech. I live in NYC and everywhere I go I'm seeing kids and adults craning their necks and backs at 45-60 degree angles. My mother was a seamstress for 30+ years and the consequences are horrible. Keep an eye on it
As for my strategies to manage this, I nag frequently (and my kids know the consequences are losing access). For the few times I do give them screen time on the go, I force them to watch with the phone on the table and either leaning on sometime or in this little phone holder that forces them to sit upright to see the screen.
Here is a random link that quantifies the impact on weight on neck at different angles: https://healthmatters.nyp.org/how-to-prevent-tech-neck/
My kitchen psychology theory is that it's related to privacy.
"Our" generation[0] used (and still uses) more text-based media, which is harder to get a read on with a quick glance over one's shoulder.
But with Snapchat and others where images are a huge part of the content, the users put the devices right at their chest as high as possible and crane down so that people around them can't see their screen as easily. And after doing that for long enough, it's just a habit, they do everything like that because that's the way they are used to doing it.
Maybe a privacy screen could ease the issue? The kind we have on laptops that narrow the side viewing angle so that it's completely opaque even slightly from the side.
[0] GenX/Elder Millennial is my theory about the majority age for HN
I spent a lot of time managing ergonomics on my work station (ergodox custom keyboard, single screen, raising desk, etc), but here I am looking down on my phone.
If so, everything is fine. How you get there depends on the kid a lot, some need hard screen time limits, some can moderate on their own.
You need to normalise the device, it's not a treat for something else or a magical device that they receive when they go "I'm bored".
As a parent (usually the dad) your #1 job is to make sure your kid is 1000% bored out of their mind as often as possible. Just make sure there are ways to alleviate that boredom nearby. For our kid it's a cart full of crafting supplies: paints, misc crap from the craft store, canvases, paper, scissors etc. For some it's a huge pile of random legos - no full kits preferably. And for others it might be a climbing wall, trampoline or something physical.
As for actual games, I can 100% suggest Toca Boca: https://tocaboca.com
They're not free, but they don't have ads or any kind of predatory IAPs either. Toca World does have IAP extensions to the world, but the price is fine IMO.
All of the games base heavily on exploration. Toca World, for example, has puzzles where secret locations in the buildings open up if you do specific things or find hidden buttons in the world. Otherwise it's just a game you dress up your 2D characters and decorate their world. Not that far off from Sims actually.
In other games you need to figure out what kind of food some weird alien looks like and how do they want it cooked, or how you can breed different types of plants by combining others.
I also have a 2 year old son and am very curious about this.
It's tough, because I do know whatever I do won't be ideal, and we won't know till later when we learn more about how our brains work what we really should be doing with regards to screen use by kids.
And, at the same time, things are accelerating fast, so there's a decent chance tech is totally different by the time our children are in high school, or even elementary school.
I think that in an ideal world, we'd all use technology all the time and it'd be a natural extension of ourselves letting us be fuller versions of ourselves and more present with each other. It's a shame we're not in that world yet, and I'm hopeful that as we get richer humanity starts designing tech to be more agency increasing with this target in mind rather than losing agency to shorter term incentives.
With our 2 year old, I think the highest impact thing we do is try to strict about being present with him and not on our phones. I suspect this might be much more important than whatever rules are established for a child's own use of technology.
Reminds me of the pretty compelling poem "Children Learn What They Live": https://www.freepoemsonline.net/poems-htm/children1.htm
Thinking about it, the concept of treat is more fitting for the parents than the kid.
We will likely heavily restrict screentime. Ideally no screentime until we are two, and then we will probably allow 15 minutes of "watching" a day.
I suspect we will make a pretty broad exception for actual games though. Probably airplane rides will get some general exception too since that is just a limited environment.
As we get older we may allow some more passive screen time but probably push heavily on "doing things" instead.
Montessori has this great rule when making decisions about toys: Any toy that does the entertaining for the child is disallowed. Any toy that lets the child entertain themselves and is safe is fine. I like this because it captures the "legos are great, obnoxious light up sing song toys are bad" that aligns with my inner feelings.
For our screen time we allow, I will preselect content and load it up on a tablet. Probably clone my current youtube system that downloads content from youtube and serves it up on a UI with no autoplay or suggestions. I will likely firewall off the device from the wider internet but allow it lan access so it can still get regular media updates.
I think this is a really important point — "screen time" isn't really a problem in and of itself. If one of my kids wants to spend hours obsessing over a composition in GarageBand, I'm going to stay out of it other than encouraging regular breaks to prevent eyestrain.
No screens at all until about 4 or 5. Then it was an occasional family movie day or evening.
So without screens, she read even more books. Reading at 8th grade level in 2nd grade. And college level in 5th grade. So that’s a challenge for a parent, finding college-level content appropriate for a 9 year old. We did ok there.
There were limited access screens in 1st, 2nd grade public schools.
We started homeschooling for 3rd grade. Computer / iPad use for schoolwork through about 6th grade where we let her start using it for comms with her peers, email, chat, NO social media.
All along the way we taught digital citizenship and how to stay away from groomers.
We found about a year ago she was reading some kind of racy stuff on a fan fiction site, with some creepy folks lurking in the comments. At that point we realized we made a mistake letting her compute in private. So we realigned, computer/iPad use only in the living room and only with screen mirroring to the television turned on. We don’t really watch the mirroring, it’s a behavior modification tool which we will discard once she shows some signs of being more mature and following rules.
Anyway, you know better than anyone what is right for your child. Of course consult other parents for ideas but you’ll do your best and pivot as needed.
She’s still reading. I think keeping screens off limits was a huge gift to her. She’s tearing through a trilogy of about 1-3/4” thick novels this week. This is even with routine daily tv watching about an hour a day. Her willingness to read has enabled her to teach herself a lot. We still homeschool and we outsource topics where we are weak to private educators.
Substitute sugar or something else in the house for donuts. Apply that.
The main thing is to resist the temptation to use the technology as the babysitter. But, oh god, that temptation is the hardest ever, some days.
Many schools ban phones during class anyway, so maybe get him a watch instead.
And here's the hardest - are you addicted to screens, phones, and social media? Then you've already lost. Get everyone a Light Phone: https://www.thelightphone.com
Creative: Blender, Scratch, Blockbench, Krita.
Thinking Games: Minecraft, Kerbal, Stormworks.
Relaxing Games: most other stuff.
Then we have fixed times of day when each thing is allowed e.g. creative in the morning, followed by some thinking, then s long break, and relaxing in the late afternoon.
I put on videos about Blender etc sometimes and they put it into practice shockingly quickly when faced with limited alternatives.
They are 7 and 9 now and started this way from around 3yo. Hoping to use Discord to connect them with more creative kids next.
Our family is usually pretty busy with sports, parties, and other activities on the weekend so there are fewer chances for screen time throughout the day. But we don’t mind an hour here or there between activities or at the end of the day.
Both my kids have Kindle Fires. It gets used on airplanes, drives longer than 4 hours, or if they can’t agree on something to watch or want to play a game instead of using the family TV. We don’t allow the use of screens at restaurants or in the car.
During the summer they go to camp from 8:30am-4:30pm. They usually come home and watch TV for 1-2 hours and relax from a day of being outside and running around.
Sick days are TV days.
I’d love for them to maybe have a little less screen time. That’s also coming from someone who’s watched almost zero TV in the last 6 months but spends 12+ hrs a day on a computer. But I feel like we’ve found a decent enough balance. My kids do there school work and are active and have other interests. They don’t put up a fight when we tell them to turn the screen off.
My kids are very young and get restless indoors. They demand more engagement. I can usually distract them by going outside, where they immediately calm down. This doesn't work forever, but it gives them an outlet for awhile where I don't necessarily have to read and roughhouse to keep them entertain. The only solid alternative indoors is: having other kids around. Otherwise they seem to get bored of their toys and want television.
The tv time is just as much for me as it is for them. I'm wiped and happy to give in for 10-15 minute spells. It's not like you can reason with an infant like "oh you're bored? do something creative" - they need attention and validation, which is draining, and then if they're familiar with screens they want that stimulus.
There are also options like homeschooling, but that is obviously a massive commitment and different life journey for a family to take.
Then ofc there are rules and enforcement mechanisms. Rules can really be whatever you like. Enforcement can happen at your router, DNS or maybe firewall. If you like to configure those sorts of things you could block access to certain services or websites based on time of day, or target specific devices in you network. When they are not home you won't be able to do this so easily. There is also risks of coming off too adversarial and damaging your relationship with your child.
edit: typo
We do not use timers or set limits around how much time a day. My preschooler enjoys games, learns a lot through TV, has an exceptional vocabulary and a big imagination. They still enjoy spending time outside and playing with others. My hope is that they learn to self regulate early.
The 4 year old would get less if it weren’t for the 6 year old.
Our older one can decide between certain iOS games (like monument valley and some others) or watching a video. Grizzy and The Lemmings is something they enjoy a lot at the moment, the younger one like to watch Blaze and the older one likes to watch Checker Tobi. The latter is a fellow explaining all kinds of stuff in an age appropriate way, but 6+ would be even better.
We are planning to keep the 30min for the forseeable future. But there are exceptions like long travels, sick days, etc.
They're 10 and 6 now and we're a bit more lenient about it. They have a bit in the morning before school as motivation and a bit more in the morning on the weekend. They play outside a lot with each other and with friends so we're less worried than we've been in the past.
In terms of social isolation ... our kids will 9 times out of 10 voluntarily skip screen time if they have a friend to play with or often they'll play a game on an iPad with a friend, which feels better than on their own. I've read that the problems with too much screen time comes down to reducing time moving their bodies, building social skills, and thinking for themselves. They seem to be doing great with that on their own so our anxiety around it has gone down quite a bit over time (it was quite high in the beginning).
Our oldest is now asking for her own phone, which is a whole other thing. I'm desperate not to become a family that just sits around with our heads buried in our devices and I've had to be mindful myself of being a good example there.
they both have ipads now and swtiches and an xbox they share. They are only allowed on when I tell them they can play games. The ipads have internet access but everything is sent to our phones. They are forbidden to visit any social media, including youtube.
They have to get approval for any games they add to the systems.
We let them play games becuase their friends do and all the kids chat while doing it so its good for socializing. They can only friend people they know.
Oldest just got a phone. Internet is disabled. He can only text and call.
While it sounds like a lot, we have a good system, they know what games we will let them play and so dont push for anything else to much. Its really just about setting boundaries but giving them enough freedom that they dont push those boundaries.
My oldest did spend about $100 on fortnite once without telling us and so we locked that down. He knew it was wrong but did it anyway which is on me. He wont do it again (no physical punishment in my house, I just explained that i was disappointed and grounded him for a week). We had a good talk about it.
During summer they play a lot of games as I have to work and their friends are all online with them.
Near unlimited screen time, except after lights off at night. Scale it back hard when they show signs of addiction - refusing to shower, refusing to stop watching when asked, not doing homework. Usually that means no devices for a week or so.
Why does mommy and daddy get screen time after dark? Because we get up at 5 AM, shower, brush teeth, cook breakfast. If the kids want more time, then they should get up early and get ready for school.
There is one TV. It goes to the kid with the most "points". Points are earned with good deeds, basically cleaning up, wearing seatbelts, etc, and reset at the end of the day.
TV time isn't always a win. The ones who don't get the TV will usually go out for a walk with daddy, cook together, kick a ball, play PC games, or something actually fun. Sometimes it ends up with the kid without TV priority calling unfair - the intent is showing them that even though they can get work hard and earn the luxuries, it doesn't always make them happy.
However, what they watch is heavily monitored. Most of the stuff on YouTube are junk by default. Avoid professional streamers, who usually tend to be hyped up, swear often, and exaggerate anger. Kids tend to pick up these habits.
Avoid the games designed for addiction. Usually things with microtransactions and no ending. Let them play the bad/lazy stuff though, those are good for building immunity.
It works out as planned. They enjoy it as a family activity, but most of the time they're drawing stickers, playing ball, building cardboard planes, the usual kid stuff.
On special occasions we watch movies on the projector.
Consistency is key; don't break the rules yourself. When my wife watches videos at the dinner table my child points out the offense and I happily encourage her to stick to the rules.
Kids let you know when they don't like something. In that case you can try to explain the rationale for the rule at their level. That works for me. Weaving some fun into the rule can make it easier to go down; e.g., making funny faces while you brush your teeth for one minute.
Sometimes they will try to surreptitiously break rules. And you can have a talk about that.
I’ve talked to a lot of parents about this, and one policy that stood out to me was:
- It’s allowed to use a computer to create things as much as you want, but you need to use the family computer in a common space - learning to code, writing a book, composing music, anything where you’re making something
- You can have 1 hour of screen time daily on personal devices outside of common spaces for consuming - TV / etc
I liked this because it emphasizes positive use of computers. I think something like this could be great up until age 13 or so, then it should probably be a lot more permissive.
Edit: I’m pretty sure bentt, who is also in this thread, is the parent I’m referring to. Hi Ben!
Every family approaches family rules/dynamics differently
30 years ago, it was "who has the Game Boy" or "why can't I have a Walkman"
In 20 years, it will be something different yet again
We do not let our kids have real phones (they can play with old ones sometimes), and they can only use tablets or laptops for educational purposes (and an occasional (and time-limited) game)
Somehow all of humanity managed to survive for millennia without cell phones, smartphones, etc - your kids will, too :)
I review their YouTube usage monthly, and I also play games with them some. Anything inappropriate, we talk about it.
They get "unlimited" time for creative activities such as Roblox Studio, iMovie, and such. They're growing up in a digital world, they need to know how to use them as tools. It's unlimited in that I Don't put a time limit on it, but if they're staying on it for hours I make them take breaks.
They also get extra time if they're connecting with people, or using it for education.
No social media till an undetermined time.
Regarding screentime we are pretty strict. He is not allowed more than 15 minutes a day, and that is from a selection of some farm videos. He's also got his own iPhone but it's not on WiFi and it's only so that if he wants to take photos. They learn very quickly at this age.
Whatever you do, don't let your toddler browse YouTube or something like that on their own, it's like a continuous endorphine kick and they'll just want to do it instead of healthier activities like being outside.
If this is the approach you settle on, know that I think of my parents as nice people but otherwise don’t have much of a relationship with them (live on opposite coast, email contact only, etc.).
I wish we had.
She didn't get any screen time at all until 7 or 8. Then we gave her 30 mins a day. If she was doing something interesting she could ask for more time and tell us how much and what for. But she usually just watched youtube or play pvz for 30 mins and done. No social media, but allowed a few messenger apps.
So far she doesn't seem to resent us or even care. Not sure if it's where we live, or the age, but most of the other parents seem similar.
She did have one friend who was always on TikTok and trying to make vids. Instead of begging us for TikTok, she recognized and pointed out to us how weird it was to always want to be doing that.
Here are some things I do with my son who just turned 5:
Lots of tinker type toys.
Big cardboard boxes.
Lots of outside play.
Lots of reading books we borrow from the library.
no kids yet but one trick could be figuring out what computer related chores you could make them do so they just don't want to spend more time at a screen
We were both raised with basically zero restrictions on computer usage. I had a computer in my bedroom from the time I was ten when the 386 supplanted the 286 in the den. Every time the family would get a new computer, the old one would move into my room. That however came with very little of the dangers of today. Social media was not a thing. and the trouble you could get into on sub-56k internet were pretty limited by comparison.
Neither of us want to do straight up arbitrary "screen time" restrictions. They strike me as the worst kind of rule - arbitrary. Creative endeavors, reading, learning and growing shouldn't come with restrictions. I wouldn't be the person I am today in the job I have today if I hadn't been able to spend endless hours trying to make my monochrome 286 do neat things.
And yet… On the other hand I don't think there's a lot of value in endless short form videos or scrolling social media.
For years I have seen my nieces and nephews with unrestricted personal tablet use spend entire holidays watching YouTube sitting in the corner at their grandparents house and it frankly bothers me. My in-laws will often let their very young children use their phone "as a treat". One of my "favorite" stories to tell is my at the time three year old niece stealing her moms phone from her purse to watch YouTube videos. On her mom confiscating the phone and telling her "You have to ask to use mommy's phone" she had a meltdown screaming "I don't ask. I don't ask." over and over for a solid five minutes.
I suspect prior to a certain age, keeping them from electronics particularly without active guidance is probably for the best. I also suspect whatever I try to do will likely fall apart when their friends will have limitless access. I have genuinely considered homeschooling over this but my wife doesn't like that option.
Recently, prior to the birth of our daughter, we babysat my friends son. My friends advice was "if he starts to cry, just put on Cocomelon". After about 15 minutes of him screaming for his mommy I resigned and put it on and he immediately stopped crying - and literally everything else other than breathing - and just STARED at the TV with a unblinking gaze. I have become convinced that there is something in that show that just should not be seen by children. I had not really considered restricting my kids access to media prior to this, but it was honestly kind of frightening. I am far more afraid of whatever that is that Cocomelon contains than I am of their exposure to sex or violence.
The long and short is that I really don't know, and it worries me.
