It feels like the author is trying to not state the obvious that every comment here has pointed out - the batteries are lock ins, and expensive ones at that. For $100 I can buy modern electrical engineering marvels, or a run of the mill battery from Milwaukee. Or just a battery charger. It is this industry's way of making profits until they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.
You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work.
The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.
From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well.
It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-converted to 48v, then the power switching in the tool needs to handle higher voltage too (which I think is actually not a real concern, could actually help a lot).
But more obviously, it's a question of form factors. Tools have shapes that conform to & support their packs. USB doesn't have any kind of a play here right now, only defines a connector, cable & how data & power are to be transmitted.
It's hard to imagine getting out of this tar-pit. Whose going to start building more expensive packs that spit out standard 48v usb-pd? What hero would do that?
Side note, some day I'd really love to see a much higher amperage USB connector. Usb-d should be able to do like 30a, 1.5kW at 48v. Big ask, but it's one potential exciting frontier I hope "universal" extends into. My other ask is for a longer range 5+ gbps USB4, but that seems maybe potentially harder, I dunno.
Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.
When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7
10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack.
Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.
Second, I shopped around and found LG MH1 INR 18650 3200mAh HD 10A for under $5 per cell. So my 5S2P (18v 6AH+) battery with BMS and new case was less than $70 shipped with damn fine cells.
The cheapest knockoff amazon battery that works with Makita is about $50, but those are seriously sus in both cell type and BMS. Homedepot has the OG Makita 6ah at $200+.
The only thing you need contemplate for DIY is the quality of the BMS. Don't charge batteries when you are not paying some attention.
Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for double the recording time as their 2Ah battery. Right?
Which would you rather buy, a 6Ah cordless power tool battery for $79, or a 5Ah battery for $89? The batteries are the same size and weight. Depending on the application, the 5Ah battery might outlast the 6Ah in use.
You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better?
With a bit of research on your phone, you learn that the batteries are built with 5x 18650, 5x 21700, and 10x 18650 Li-ion battery cells, respectively. All three 3Ah batteries are the same price. Does this help you choose?
Power tool battery selection is not as intuitive as looking at a 20W USB charger and simply knowing it will charge devices at a faster rate than a 5W charger. There are enough "what battery should I get?" questions in my inbox and messages folders, as well as all over online forums, for me to believe the confusion has gotten worse over the years as new overlapping technologies were introduced.
Many users don't fully understand that there can be huge differences in power capabilities. A 1.3Ah battery and a 12Ah battery of the same voltage and cordless system are going to deliver very different levels of power. A lot of tool users learn this the hard way. It's not their fault, as a 12Ah battery might be simply advertised as delivering more than 9X the runtime.
With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand?
In my opinion, if user experience concerns can be addressed, and numerous technical obstacles flattened, companies "making profits until they get regulated" will be the easiest hurdle to overcome.
If you want to better understand why replacement batteries cost so much, look at different brands' sales and promotions. The Makita XGT circular saw kit (GSR01M1) is $299 right now across authorized dealers, and you get a free extra battery. The same 4Ah battery (BL4040) is priced at $199 to $219, each. So that's $299 for the kit with a total of 2 batteries plus a saw, charger, and tool bag, or $398 for just 2 batteries.
Based on this type of retail math, I'd say replacement battery prices are set to balance out the promos.
Marketing comparisons across brands is a matter of regulation (as opposed to say letting manufacturers post blatantly fraudulent specs like they did for shop vacs for the longest time). Or the market will adapt and it will just be common knowledge that "4Ah" in Ryobi land is more like "3Ah" in Milwaukee land (I've no idea if that's the case, just making up an example).
Overall yes, companies will come up with a myriad of reasons why they need more control in the name of "helping" people, and some reasons may even have some legitimacy. But ultimately they want that control to further their own self interest.
>You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better?
>With a bit of research on your phone,
Personally, myself nor anyone I know who uses power tools more than just buying a 12v drill once, would do this research on our phone in the aisle of Home Depot. If I see three batteries all rated the same, it would be a price decision or a form factor one ("bigger must be better"). That could be where my disconnect is - I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.
>With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together.
This happens now across the consumer and business space. I have clients at work who buy a cheaper usb-c dock for their laptops, because why is the Dell official one $250? Some users might run into issues with it while others in their company don't. Some blame the dock, some blame their old laptop, some curse that their company didn't buy them Apple devices. The truth is always somewhere in the middle, sometimes it is the dock but sometimes it isn't. Dell doesn't care - they made $100B last year and they'll just tell you to buy the official Dell dock even if it is your old computer causing the issues.
But I, and everyone I know, would hate it if no one made those cheaper usb-c docks and just limited our choices to the $250 options.
The math behind the market of the batteries also doesn't interest anyone I know. We don't care how / why Milwaukee or Makita runs deals, we're just mad that we're spending so much. More options, and cheaper options, have never been a bad thing in a market.
A potential solution to this problem is that companies be required to make the datasheet for the cells in their battery packs available to consumers. Presently I am not sure if there's a way to find out what cells a pack is made from except by taking it apart, which both voids the warranty and can be dangerous if you aren't careful.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ryobi/comments/oxn53g/psa_ryobi_is_...
I have a DeWalt drill that I bought some years ago. I literally have no idea if the drill performs well or not no matter what batteries would go best into it. My requirements are fairly low, I just occasionally need a drill.
The vast majority of consumers out there that buy a drill for their home don't care about all the performance issues that you like geeking out over. And they don't need to care.
> "until" they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.
In the US though, very unlikely that they will be regulated.
It is about money. Money from batteries, money from vendor lock in. This isn't cynicism, it's economics. These companies would probably lose at least half of their profit, maybe much more, if they gave up the battery.
And there's more reasons. If you want people to buy more tools (of course you do) you want to be able to phase out the old tools, and the best way to do that is a new incompatible battery. Or if you want to use a different voltage. Or if you want to ensure the battery won't set the tool on fire and cause returns or lawsuits. Or if you want to change the balance, or form factor, or something else.
And even though they changed battery tech, all the tools still work with batteries in both directions. They designed each new battery tech to do that.
What tool system do you think has all the problems you listed?
It's fundamentally different than phone cables, where the shape of the connector doesn't really matter and was / is purely a lock-in. There are big differences between the choices the cordless tool manufacturers have made re batteries. It's certainly not a place for government mandates.
> As many readers might be aware, you can find 3rd party battery adapters on Amazon, eBay, and other such marketplaces.
These could be user replaceable.
But really, you could 6 different shapes that would serve 99.99% of the use cases, and the other .1% could have replacable cells.
As long as working people deny the descructive forces of profit .vs technical excellence, this won't improve.
The reality is that for most tradesmen and users it’s just not a problem at all. If all your tools are one battery, fine. If one is different then that’s the “toilet plunger battery” or whatever, and if you have an eclectic mix then you probably keep them relatively organized.
And if you really really want to you can 3D print or buy adapters with varying success.
Or it's proof that they want you to have to buy their new batteries when your old tool dies.
Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again.
I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why?
It’s like an xkcd.
Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools.
At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
Thus a 10.8v (3 x 3.6v) and a 12v (3 x 4v) are the same thing, just measured differently.
As is an 18v (5 x 3.6v) and a 20v "Max" (5 x 4v).
36v and 40v are both 10 cells in series.
Etc.
It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools.
All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.
For smaller tools there could sensibly be a couple to 4? perhaps sizes of battery pack, "handheld" for screwdriver to toothbrush to "personal manipulation tools", a bit bigger for handheld drills; double that again for small saws and stuff... any bigger and it begins to become an an unwieldy burden just for the battery, and the tool becomes more sensible to power in other ways.
Look at the standard AA, C, D cell sizes and what they did for the electronics market. Come up with a set of some standards and then go sell manufacturers on your package because of the profit opportunities it will offer them. Get some big battery cell manufacturer to back you, perhaps.
In my view it’s time for regulators to step in and push the tool companies towards battery compatibility, as the technology is now mature enough for standards to be viable.
[1] https://www.husqvarna.com/au/battery-equipment/bli950x-backp...
On the flip side, look at how far we've strayed from that, with many devices only having their own proprietary battery.
We have a Dyson vacuum running with like 12 molicell p42a’s in it & it’s insane. Can suck on max setting for like 20 minutes, & even then motor overheating is a larger issue than running out of battery.
Kweld & maletrics spot welders have turned making a custom Li-Ion/else pack into child’s play for the average person who’s turned a screwdriver in their life. Those two are a bit expensive, but older & clunkier spot welders can be found for extremely cheap at this point. They’re more than enough for making power tool packs for you & friends.
Milwaukee takes it a step further with the dual 12/18v chargers, because that would be a decision point that could make a switch - you could have all Dewalt 20V but nothing would stop you getting 12v Makita or whatever.
Also unlike some other tool manufactures they still sell all the models of batteries for all the cordless tools from the late 1970's to today. They were the first company to make cordless power tools too. I just find it crazy they still sell batteries for tools getting almost 50 years old.
-edit (added a link)- These batteries are brand new and will work in a makita tool made in 1978. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/B7000-B-10
At the end of the day, though, camera owners don't prioritise that enough in their purchasing decisions to change the market. People were happy to lock into highly proprietary mounts when Minolta developed autofocus (and migrated to the A-mount) and then Canon followed with their EF.
My take: The situation could definitely be better, but it's also pretty nice compared to the NiCD days of 20 years ago.
Caveat: I only just got in on the battery powered tools game in the past 6 months. I went corded for a long time after being burned too many times as a kid wanting to use dad's hand drill once every several months, and the batteries being dead.
But yea they did just announce a micro-wave.
Most tool batteries just wrap high quality LG Chem 18650s. I don't know the wholesale price, but since they're roughly $4-$5 at retail, lets say 8x @ $3 wholesale. Then you have electronics bom/assembly (generous $10) and casing/asembly ($2) and labor ($1) for a total of $37. Following the "Double your cost and charge that rule" = $74
I made my estimate before looking up the cost of batteries, but Ryobi (Owned by TTI, same people that make Milwaukee hilariously) falls around that price point as do others. So the prices, while seemingly ginormous, aren't as absurd as one thinks. 18650 LiOn prices are insane.
DeWalt (Owned by Stanley Black & Decker) is now creating tool batteries that use flat cells (called "Pouch Batteries"), which honestly, makes _a lot_ more sense. Square tool batteries = square batteries = more mAh per unit volume. No idea why don't use these in BE-EVs.
As you said, Ryboi and Mikwaukee have the same owner, along with Ridgid [0]. They could have easily made batteries work across brands, and even added caveats to their marketing that your Milwaukee tools won't have full performance with Ryobi batteries (etc). But they didn't - because once someone buys into an ecosystem they get a strong affinity to continue buying in, rather than saving money and buying a less expensive tool that they need less. Market decommodification generally increases margins.
The main draw for the lockin, at least in my experience, is wanting a good supply of batteries to not run out in the middle of something. Whereas if I had many different color tools and one or two batteries for each color, then I'd have to be much more attentive to keeping them charged.
Personally I bought into Dewalt - the trigger on their driver felt smoother. Then Dewalt 60V - the tool I wanted had good reviews and I can use the batteries in 20V tools for longer yard work, etc. My one deviation has been the Ryobi powered PEX cincher, for which Dewalt or anybody else didn't seem to have a comparable one. I bought it as a bare tool and added a Dewalt->Ryobi battery adapter. Occasionally I'll see more Ryobi stuff at great prices and be tempted, but I ask myself if I really need it, given that it's probably "less powerful" (half marketing, half truth) and the balance would be off (due to the adapter). Meanwhile a sale on a Dewalt tool that will make my life easier feels like a no brainer, due to already having the "proper" batteries.
The main churn-gimmick I've managed to resist is buying cordless tools when corded ones suffice for the type of job. Like if I'm needing a palm sander, I'm probably working on a longer term project and it makes sense to run an extension cord, rather than needing to occasionally do a few minutes of sanding at a time. Although I admit that calculus might be different if I didn't literally have more corded power tools than I know what to do with.
[0] https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/
They are but I think the more official/rigorous term is "prismatic cell".
https://www.google.com/search?q=prismatic+cell
(As opposed to cylindrical like 18650 et. al.)
Same batteries with different plastic bits to keep them incompatible. Remove the plastic bits and suddenly your black and decker battery fits into the porter cable device no problems.
POWER TOOL MANUFACTURERS AND WHO REALLY OWNS THEM https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
TTI owns Milwaukee, Ridgid, Ryobi. Cant swap batteries between them despite all coming from same factory.
Stanleyblackanddecker is Craftsman, Stanley, Proto, Irwin, MAC, Bostitch, DeWalt, the list goes on and on. Its pure comedy. There are some rare cases where they share same design in different regions https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_1... but other than that they pull pranks like same injection molding with same pin shape but switched polarity!
Edit: There's also the financial interests of german companies like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell. Imagine if they were forced to use a common battery format so that anyone could build a battery for their tools?
The original, 2014, directive aimed to eliminate 51,000 tones of e-waste annually [1]. That works out to about 0.11kg per-person annually.
Currently the average EU citizen disposes of 0.74kg of "electrical tools and medical devices" annually.
So you are correct that power tools and medical devices are a much bigger source of waste.
If you are lucky enough to have an MEP represent you, do ask them why they are not addressing this also.
[1] https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-direct... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/202...
https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z
(They also offer a kettle and a cooler, and other things that are useful on a job site but not conventionally "tools".)
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/...
> What are the costs to add a USB PD module to an electronic device? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for...
> - [ ] Create an industry standard interface for charging and using [power tool,] battery packs; and adapters
From "Zero energy ready homes are coming" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 :
# USB power specs (DC)
7.5w = 1.5amp * 5volts # USB
15w = 3a * 5v # USB-C
100w = 5a * 20v # USB-C PD
240w = 5a * 48v # USB-C PD 3.1
* USB-C (type A and type C) (but simplify the voltage selection and change the spec so it just supplies as many amps as it can)
* 12V 5.5x2.1mm barrel connectors
* 12V car accessory outlets
* 12V battery terminals
* 19V Dell laptop power connectors
* 48V Power Poles (originally made by Anderson) in various amperages
Lithium, rechargeable batteries should also be standardized:
* Nokia 1100 prismatic cell (still used in many wireless peripherals, and could work well in almost all A/V remote controls)
* 4AH lithium prismatic cell (for most cell phones)
* 18650 (single cell)
* 2-cell 18650 pack (pick any power tool battery and use that)
* 4-cell devices should use a pair of the 2-cell 18650 packs. Black and Decker made VPX power tools that did that many years ago.
* 5-cell lithium pack (maybe 18650 cells) Pick any power tool battery that has a flat top, meaning not my beloved Ryobi and use that. Then everyone can make adapters that add 1/2" to the height of the battery.
* 40V lithium battery pack (pick any one of the electric lawnmower types that can handle a lot fo amps and use that)
* Car-scale battery packs that are about 1 cubic foot, so that many of them can power your home or automobile
Like, why don't we have a standard for wireless connections to a TV? We have a standard for hardwire connections (HDMI) that is pretty much universal now. But why not a wireless HDMI? Why can't we make it easy for anyone with a laptop to connect to a TV as a remote display?
Companies these days would rather make money from their proprietary connectors and equipment instead of possibly making consumer's lives a little easier and maybe even getting more customers because they are cross compatible.
Let's not waste a thousand words when one will do. It's really that simple.
All these batteries are just 18/36/54 Volt configurations of 18650 cells (with a few exceptions). Some have $0.50 undercharge management chips, some don't. The difference is the mounts and pinouts and they are only distinctive to avoid interoperability.
They do this to keep you brand-loyal.
As soon as you buy a kit (eg driver, drill, battery and charger) for a knock down rate you're much more likely to buy other "bare" tools from the same range because they're compatible with the expensive battery you've just bought. It's cheaper to stay loyal. As soon as you go pro, that loyalty is magnified because you need multiple batteries ready to go. Owning and charging that redundancy across multiple platforms is a lot of overhead.
They could all use the same batteries and chargers. They choose not to.
Bosch has made a common platform (now called AMPShare?) but the buy-in is limited (mostly smaller, mostly German toolmakers) and Bosch seems to do best out of this, but it's a start.
You cannot just connect + to + and - to -.
What could work is a battery with a new standardized interface, and modular adapters that can match different brands' tool interfaces.
Over the years, maybe some brands might develop tools that mate directly to the universal battery.
But now there are 18V/20V Max, 24V Max, 36V/40V Max, and 54V/60V Max cordless systems. There's no practical solution for this.
Cordless is more convenient but way more expensive when you add in batteries, especially for power intensive tools like grinders.
I sold all my Ryobi stuff except for their air compressor and switched to AEG. Bought an AEG->Ryobi adapter for, I think, 10€ and it works just fine with the Ryobi compressor.
There’s no question why different manufacturers use different batteries.