undefined | Better HN

0 pointscturner14y ago0 comments

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth.

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late high-school math to understand Big-O.

I suspect people who are good at or passionate about math are far more likely to stroke their ego with premature optimisation.

Also, there's a vast difference between aptitude for maths, and performing well in maths tests. Attention to detail, regard for the education system, interest in the topic all play a part.

    > There is evidence women avoid computing because
    > they are intolerant of geeks

I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. Young men are a strange bunch, but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around. It can be more effort to deal with someone bizarre (has feelings but is draining) than someone who is just a bastard (quickly tell them to get stuffed). If you sense a concentration of draining people - avoid!

0 comments

yummyfajitas14y ago

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming...

I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college).

Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data that I'm not even going to attempt to write about stuff I have no readily available data on.

I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. [...] young nerds [...] are therefore undesirable to be around.

Um, that's not the reverse direction. That's the same direction as what I said: women avoid computing because they are intolerant of geeks.

Note that young nerds also often act "bizarrely" towards men and each other. I certainly did before I learned to pass. But the claim of the author of the studies I cited is that women are less tolerant of "bizarre" behavior.

cturnerOP14y ago

    > I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data

It's a bit like the flying spaghetti monster book where they correlate the decline of piracy with global warming. You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

I accept your correction in that we're making the same point about young men. What I should have said is that the way you phrase it makes it seem like it's women that initiate the pattern. I don't think that's so. Although perhaps you could go back further and ask, what made the men neurotic in the first place, was it cruel rejection or bullying by prom queens - no idea. I just found the phrasing backwards.

yummyfajitas14y ago

You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself.

However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col...

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480

And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works).

I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).

cema14y ago

  I would strongly suspect that 
  just as math and CS ability are correlated, 
  so would math and chemistry.

I am not sure about that. In my experience, mathematics and chemistry were not noticeably correlated (either way). On the other hand, such ostensibly different subjects as mathematics and music were positively correlated. Experience is anecdotal but includes math classes in high school, applied math in college, and computer science in grad school.

drumdance14y ago

Music and computer programming are correlated as well. Once upon a time orchestras were overwhelmingly male, but now there are a lot more women in orchestras, not to mention world-class soloists. This is partly due to the blind audition process that became common ~40 years ago.

roguecoder14y ago

I'd assume music and CS would be more closely correlated, and there is lots of research into music too. Most relevantly, the transition to blind auditions wiping out gender disparities in orchestra makeups.

wlievens14y ago

> so would math and chemistry

Anecdotal evidence here: I'm pretty good at math, but failed several chemistry exams in high scool. I just didn't "get" it. Maybe I would be able now, because I'm better at thinking abstractly and systematically than when I was 16, but that would be because I'm a programmer today. For me the correlation definitely doesn't hold. Same goes (to a lesser extent) for biology for me.

youngnerd11214y ago

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them!

Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

bethling14y ago

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed..

Yet, somehow I manage to keep the perspective that technology isn't populated by sexist assholes - sure the ones that are there stand out and make up a lot of the things that come to mind when I'm stressed. But really it's a small percentage [even though that small percentage can really get to you].

Try to keep the same perspective about women, the vast majority of us aren't "bitches".

youngnerd11214y ago

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation.

I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

3 more replies

jessedhillon14y ago

Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented:

For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them --

but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around

-- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women!

Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.

youngnerd11214y ago

It was in response to the parents comment

"but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around."

and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.

1 more reply

theresaanna14y ago

Reworded:

I either gravitate toward women who tend to respond to my advances negatively or have some behavior that puts women off. Therefore, I'm sexist and consider most if not all women inferior to men in ways including ability in math, engineering. Because I can't get them to sleep with me.

...What??

youngnerd11214y ago

Umm no...but let me try to reword what I said in that language:

Although I absolutely agree that it is totally irrational to think of women as inferior in anything , my primate human brain cannot be convinced by reason alone to discard all its biases.Therefore I stand as an example of a young male nerd who as a result of his interactions with the opposite sex is developing negative biases towards them.

1 more reply

mattgreenrocks14y ago

Brutally honest? You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever. What's more, it will haunt you if you don't deal with it now.

Go talk it out, either with a friend or a therapist. The longer you wait, the harder it will be.

youngnerd11214y ago

>You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

I think like all other people you are missing my point.Please read my other responses on this thread.

But Yes I am certainly a failure so far by all conventional standards......but that does'nt mean I have the magical ability to get rid of all my biases....dealing with them is going to take time and in case of this particular bias ,perhaps a lot of positive experiences of interacting with women.

1 more reply

anigbrowl14y ago

Then again, maybe it's you.

youngnerd11214y ago

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

yummyfajitas14y ago

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming...

I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. [...] young nerds [...] are therefore undesirable to be around.

Um, that's not the reverse direction. That's the same direction as what I said: women avoid computing because they are intolerant of geeks.

cturnerOP14y ago

    > I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data

yummyfajitas14y ago

You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming.

Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself.

However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col...

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480

And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works).

I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).

cema14y ago

  I would strongly suspect that 
  just as math and CS ability are correlated, 
  so would math and chemistry.

drumdance14y ago

roguecoder14y ago

wlievens14y ago

> so would math and chemistry

youngnerd11214y ago

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them!

Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

bethling14y ago

Try to keep the same perspective about women, the vast majority of us aren't "bitches".

youngnerd11214y ago

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation.

I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

3 more replies

jessedhillon14y ago

Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented:

For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them --

but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around

-- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women!

Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.

youngnerd11214y ago

It was in response to the parents comment

"but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around."

and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.

1 more reply

theresaanna14y ago

Reworded:

...What??

youngnerd11214y ago

Umm no...but let me try to reword what I said in that language:

1 more reply

mattgreenrocks14y ago

Go talk it out, either with a friend or a therapist. The longer you wait, the harder it will be.

youngnerd11214y ago

>You're projecting your own personal failings onto all women, and it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

I think like all other people you are missing my point.Please read my other responses on this thread.

1 more reply

anigbrowl14y ago

Then again, maybe it's you.

youngnerd11214y ago

It definitely is me....the point is about why as a young male with a not perfectly rational human brain I cant seem to be able to stop myself from developing biases.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse