I started programming when I was 16. I am now over twice that and still programming. I don't like the realities of day-to-day software engineering. I cannot shake the feeling that I've spent the last 16 years doing it just because of... inertia. The 16-year old me just liked to hack around, learn fast, write shoddy scripts that pushed the limits of what I knew. So I know nothing about windows internals but I'd like to write some cheats for a game I'm playing? Let's dive in. And I loved it.
But I never had any love for the "art" of programming. I can, however, say with some confidence that I have a good sense of what makes a good, clean, sustainable solution - but the answer to that question isn't even a matter of programming, but of humans and how we work, and how we use our brains. You know, it's the old "you're too dumb to debug smart code in an emergency at 2AM". This can be extended to 95% of problems in my eyes. We need to be nice to other human beings working with us - that may be other people, or even may be me, but 3 months from now, tired, trying to hit a deadline or find a bug.
I digress, but I think I'm trying to convey the point that... I never really felt at home in my job. It all seemed off. And I have trouble figuring out where the problem lies.
Have you had moments where you did a sober double take and decided to alter your course or commit to it and stay on it? Heck, maybe close the laptop altogether.
I know this topic comes up every once in a while, and the usual answer seems to be burn out, but hopefully I can put a spin on it by focusing on what questions a person can ask themselves to better figure out what they want out of their job in the short, medium and long term.
What questions would you say one can ask themselves to really get to the bottom of it?
The median reader of Hacker News is in a privileged position to be thinking about these things. In an ideal world, we'd all find fulfillment in our work. But for 90%+ of the world, a job is just a way to put food on the table for your family. Mark Manson is "living his dream job" and "still hates about 30% of it". That's just life. [1]
So, here are some questions to ask:
1. What are your values?
2. Related: What is important about work for you? Is it the compensation? Working for a mission you believe in? Solving challenging problems? Being in an environment where you can learn every day?
3. Do you need to find meaning in your work? Or can you create meaning in other areas of your life?
Once you figure out the misalignment here you either:
a) make peace with what you truly value and want from a job, rather than what you assume you're meant to want or
b) correct the misalignment by finding a new position that reflects your values.
This sort of situation rarely happens if everyone in the team is on the same page and has each other's backs. But in today's age of job-hopping every N-years/months for x% increase in pay, there is zero incentive to do anything of that sort.
Something I realized when reading your response is that I winced a tiny bit when you mentioned "finding meaning in your work" - as if that was something I did not believe could be achieved.
I think in my mind it's more about going to work and doing things are not... so made-up. I find this extremely hard to communicate. This may be due to me being too far removed from the actual impact whatever we deliver may have. Or as other posters have pointed out, lack of confidence in the general mission.
Or maybe I haven't yet figured out the real reason and this is just something my brain has made up.
Again, thanks for your response.
It also has helped tremendously to put significant effort into learning how to communicate effectively (reading books, attending workshops, etc.), focusing significant energy into learning project management and people skills even if I don't want to be a manager, and to only take jobs with folks who I feel really respected and valued by. I also realize that I simply can't work a 40 hour week so now I work a 30 hour week even though it means that I am compensated less. I can use those two extra hours per day to exercise, practice music, meditate, take my time eating breakfast and reading, etc.
To turn this into questions that you can ask yourself:
1. What do you hate most about your job?
2. Are you able to articulate these difficulties and challenges to your supervisor and team and really be heard? If not, what can you do to improve your ability to state your needs?
3. Are you willing to leave a job that doesn't satisfy you and are you confident in your abilities to identify a job that you would like better?
4. Are you willing to sacrifice money for improved happiness?
5. Is there something else that you would rather be doing? How can you integrate that into your life to make your life feel balanced?
Funny thing. A few months ago I've also decided to improve my communication skills - both in reading and writing. (Long way to go...) It did hit me that whatever I end up doing in the long run, communication is the only 100%-reusable skill that can pay off anywhere. And so much time is wasted due to sub-optimal communication.
Fully agree on both points!
This reminds me of https://markmanson.net/question :
> What pain do you want in your life? […] What is the pain that you want to sustain?
The reason I point this out is that whenever I feel like you're feeling I eventually realize it's because I'm buying into the lie that I have to be a paragon of excellence at something for my life to be worth living or to get the most out of it. I think IT work, programming in particular, makes us think in terms of optimization but that's just not the way humans work. Of course we may want to "optimize" in small ways like healthy living or gaining skill at a hobby. There's nothing wrong with aspirations but there's also nothing wrong with being happy where you are with what you have.
I fell backwards into IT work after failing at the career I wanted out of college and then taught myself to program so I could sidestep into a developer role when I thought that would fulfill me. It didn't. I still have good days and bad days and sometimes the suspicion that I'm not fulfilling my potential creeps up on me. These are the ups and downs of real life, not problems to optimize away. My greatest pursuit lately has been growing in my ability to accept disappointment with equanimity.
To address your specific request, maybe some questions you could ask yourself are: Do I have realistic expectations about what a job is supposed to do for me? Is my job about me and what I want or is it a role I use to serve others?
One suggestion to top it off: It sounds like you're close to answering your own question when you talk about "humans and how we work, and how we use our brains." So, at the risk of being too blunt, maybe don't think so much about yourself. Maybe spend some time thinking about how you can grow in learning about humans, how they work, and how you can be of service to them as they ask themselves the same questions you're asking yourself.
I'll double down on my original comment and say that if you depend on work to be your ultimate source of fulfillment (another way of calling it a home), the disappointment and reality that "sw engineering is hard work and more often than not feels like a waste of time" will always pull the rug out from under you at some point.
Introspection can only work so much. “Extro”spection can be twice as effective. You can only know so much internally.
You mention not having love for the “art”. What do you have love for? Or what pulls you towards it, even if only slightly? Have you explored that or given it enough time to turn into something?
Looking for inherent meaning in work can be a mirage. You have to “create” that meaning for whatever you are doing.
I have written about my own experience that might be useful.
Some questions to ask about your current goals and career: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/questions-midlife-career-chan... https://www.leadingsapiens.com/ask-before-setting-goals/
David Whyte’s Crossing the Unknown Sea is a must read. I elaborated on one of his concepts here: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/the-set-of-our-sail-in-work-a...
Mid career can be especially dangerous if we are not alert. Captured some of the dynamics here: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/mid-career-mistakes/
Frameworks were essential for me to think through the big change. I collected all of them here: https://www.leadingsapiens.com/essential-career-change-frame...
You also helped me realize that part of all this mess is that I HAVE been feeling old. Well, maybe not old... older. I feel like I got hyper-focused on being a programmer (and I feel I never explicitly committed to it, just sort of went along with it) and now I just realized it's been 16 years.
Now, that last one could be a job. I want to work on something meaningful, in a way that -- if I were on my death bed -- I could say to someone else, "carry on my work". I like my job, it's interesting and useful work, but it doesn't have that kind of gravitas.
But I haven't switched jobs yet, and my happiness is generally up & up.
I am also the type of person who nests, who lays down roots; I hated renting and feeling like a transient, I want a garage full of tools where I can build things and a little garden and orchard and to have a space where I feel like I belong. And as much as I'd like to crawl into my little den and hide from the world, I also want to feel like I'm a part of a family and a community, to have people who count on me and like me. To feel like I've made some other people's lives better in some way.
So I've been working on that for now instead of chasing the dream of a job that would provide a meaningful life's work.
Which brings me round to the advice and the question again. Are there things you can work on -- ways you can grow -- outside your career, that would increase your happiness and satisfaction with life?
It becomes especially obvious when you have children; you have to start counting on them quite early to let them grow.
Long-term success (satisfaction) is about balance. Maybe there's an opportunity to work less to allow you to explore your wants/needs/path. A short-term change might help you find value in your work or in another industry/company/niche.
When I’m working on a mission I believe in with like minded people even the most routine busywork is enjoyable.
Forgive me if my central European bias is showing, but I've always discounted how important it is to align yourself with the mission of the company you decide to work for. Seemed to me like it's a complete bonus and luxury if the two overlap, and the default is just... work.
Of course as long as the company isn't actively working against something you would consider your values.
But it's definitely a question that can't be ignored if one wants to do some digging.
A sabbatical is not a vacation: your day job is trying to find what makes you tick. Brainstorm ideas, make plans, then revisit them, have days tightly scheduled and days with nothing, learn new skills, keep an eye open to opportunities, eat with friends or connect with former colleagues, read books, cook new food... But each day spend at least 4 hours on doing things deliberately. I count cooking or meeting with a friend as deliberate if you get out of your comfort zone. Even resting can be deliberate if you stir away from your usual distractions. You will experience time differently when work is not around the corner, waiting for you to come back.
You may or may not find a satisfying purpose to your life but you will grow and understand yourself better. Maybe you'll find that money is not what makes you happy and you'd prefer to sacrifice compensation for a job more in line with you. Maybe you'll yearn for a high pace job that keeps you on your feet. Who knows? But it will be your answer.
- Do I fill fulfilment in my life outside work? - Am I satisfied with my activities before I start working and after I'm done? - Do I strive to do any specific thing while at work?
If I get three positive answers, I shift those questions to be work-related:
- Do I fill fulfilment in my work life? - Am I satisfied with my work at the end of the day? - Am I eager to work on something the next day? (I don't want to think about work when I get home, so I try not to think about it).
This is just a tool to see if I'm not satisfied with the current state of my life, and I'm looking for the easiest change I can make to make it more fun. I've changed cities, jobs and fields of education a lot of times just because I wasn't satisfied with the current state of my life and wanted to change anything at any cost. Those questions help me think more clearly if it's the city I am in, the job I'm currently doing, or if anything I'm studying at the moment is making my life miserable. Most of the time, it's just me going with the flow and not taking hold of my time properly.
Just find fulfilling hobbies or something.
Taking a few things for granted here, (that you're probably well-employed and capable in a comfortable work environment that pays you comfortably,) is it so terrible that you just accept and be grateful for that, and find fulfillment, novelty, and self discovery in your time outside of work? Heck, you can even use your skillset to find ways to minimize the time and energy you have to spend at your job in order to maximize what you have to give to those other pursuits. But why burn the bridges of stability and the benefits it brings?
The grass often seems greener elsewhere, and there's nothing stopping you from making a more definitive break with software engineering once you have built momentum on a side project or endeavor that's proven its value to you during dabbling.
Not to mention, do you have a spouse/kids? What would a sudden break mean for them? If you don't, has mid-upper 30s you thought about that timeline? It's a lot harder to handle the early years of your kids' childhood in your 40s struggling in a new career than comfortably in your 30s.
What always perks me up is just trying to find something that someone wants and that I can be invested in. There's things you make for the sake of the business, but there's also things you make for the sake of other people to improve their work life. If I know the person who wants a thing, then I feel invested because I can get feedback and I can see how happy they are with it. Whereas the usual things I work on are so disconnected from me that I feel no satisfaction, like no one is congratulating me on adding a new API endpoint, it's business as usual and I don't even know the names of the people using it.
I just ask managers other non-dev roles about quality of life things they want, or their far away wishes of how they want things to be.
Sometimes it makes me want to start contracting for small businesses. I feel like I'd get satisfaction from solving their problems and seeing how happy they are.
You look at the core problems of software engineering from a human-centric point of view - which is a great perspective, IMO.
Have you thought about trying to transition to a role that is more human-focused? I'm guessing with your level of experience, it wouldn't be too hard to find a path to team lead or EM. I'd also potentially consider consulting, either freelance or as part of a firm.
Personally, working on a larger "system" that includes people - a team, a department, a solution - is much more rewarding, because I get to work on a larger class of problems with a more diverse toolset, and I get to observe my impact on others.
Is there anyone around who is better than you, who you can learn from?
If the answer is "no," you should move on to somewhere where you can find such people.
I quit after 18 months and went into contracting for startups instead, which seemed like a way to still make reasonably good money (though nowhere near as good as FAANG if you factor in the stock) and actually get to do some fun stuff - startups can be much more fun if you’re from a “hacker” mindset I think as there’s always too much to do and not enough people, and plenty of chances to learn new stuff.
I found not being a permanent employee allowed you to have less of the downsides associated with startups, e.g. you probably feel more comfortable working 9-5 if you’re on a fixed term contract versus being a permanent employee with equity etc. Also leaving a contract after the initial term if it isn’t working out is not a big deal at all, so it’s a great way to experience lots of different environments without the commitment. I’m not sure if contracting is such a big thing where you’re based (I’m in the UK where it’s very common), but I’d definitely recommend looking into it if that sounds appealing.
I was lucky enough to land a contract at a company in a field I’m passionate about which allowed me to extend my skill set from pure web dev to also do some C++ development for an app, which I’ve found is a really interesting niche for me personally, and again I think the lower level of C++ programming appeals to the hacker mindset. I’m now back as a permanent employee in the “medium tech” (lol) world, but my contracting experience was great fun and allowed me to find a niche which I really enjoy and which led to work more aligned with the reasons I got into this as a youngster (companies using C++ and JS together generally aren’t building yet another CRUD app!)
Did you find these opportunities mostly through your personal network? What would you recommend to others looking to find similar opportunities?
However, I have plenty of friends who are contractors and get all their roles through recruiters. Most of them have said it pays to cultivate a good relationship with recruiter(s) you can trust to find you good roles - if they know you’re good (based on feedback from previous clients they placed you with) you’ll likely be the first person they reach out to when there’s a new role that would suit.
One thing to be aware of is that contract roles are often looking for people to start ASAP and are not willing to wait for long notice periods, especially if you’re coming from a permanent role to contracting (I was told this is partially because people sometimes actually end up staying in the perm role e.g. because they get tempted to stay, wasting everyone’s time)… so you might find you need to take a leap of faith and quit without anything lined up, unless you can get an in through someone in your network who’s willing to wait for your notice (this happened for me).
As I say I’m not sure how relevant this advice is in other countries, my impression is contracting in software dev is more common in the UK than many other countries.
However, I know that I am my worst enemy in this. I am paid well and above those I graduated with. There are different pain points with iOS development, but overall I like it. Except for the similar feeling, my current issues is being okay about still needing to learn a lot (being 37 I want to have a much higher mastery than currently), and also my current team which doesn't high standards.
Enjoying work for me is about two things; being good at what I do (and efficient!) and also being in a good team. Any job can be fun when you are working with the right people – but of course that doesn't always extend to every kind of job.
You started out the way I started out with learning IT. I did it because I wanted to play games. It became a profession (administration), but later on I wanted better jobs, higher pay etc. and decided on university. From my current situation I work from home, can work basically anywhere, and I enjoy a kind of freedom which is quite rare. I also have ambitions to become a consultant in the long run, make a few apps of my own etc.
I love what I do when I am good at it. No matter what I do the same issue will occur; drudging past being mediocre is painful and I hate it. Being 37 and wished I was only 25 instead (skill-wise after university) doesn't really help either – that is something I have to consciously be aware because I've had health issues.
Maybe I have become a bit jaded, but I don't expect work to be fun. I expect work to be meaningful mentally, engaging, and give me the lifestyle and freedom I want. What do you want from work, really?
Q1) What makes you happy? (easier said than done, but if not as work, finding things that you can do outside of work, and like-minded people you can meet makes life worthwhile I feel. I am still working on this myself)
Q2) What makes you want to feel like you can't wait to get up every day in the morning? (Sometimes it's just a mindset switch, from this is a "job" to actually finding ways to become very engaged, and passionate. Finding ways to tie it into your long-term goals whether pursuit of knowledge or curiosity, for example)
Q3)What are your financial goals? (Whether you're FI, or not has a huge effect for the questions above I feel, and sometimes that will help you sort your short, medium and long-term expectations)
For me, work satisfaction comes down to: am I solving important problems? Am I growing / maturing through the work I am doing (ie is it challenging me in the right way)? Do I like and respect the people I work with? Am I valued and rewarded for what I do?
For me these are the things that matter and I've been lucky on these dimensions across my career.
So maybe first question to yourself is - what are the dimensions you care about? They may have overlap with mine or not.
Second question, of the dimensions you care about, which ones are you not satisfied with in your current role.
Third question, what are steps you can do to improve those dimensions?
I think such framework can be helpful. I'll come back and reply more later if this strikes a chord.
I've asked myself these three broad questions:
1. What would my ideal future look like? Where would I like to be, in terms of relationships, career, hobbies and so on.
2. What does the opposite of (1) look like? If I really let things go, if I truly failed at life and screwed everything up, what would my life be like?
3. What 8 goals, challenging but doable, could I complete this year that would get me closer to (1)? These 8 goals must be measurable and be bound by a deadline.
I can't say whether or not this will deliver results, but I have found it quite motivating to ponder all this carefully.
I remember working in a team of 30-40 developers and we had those incredibly boring monday morning meetings. Nobody wanted to say anything, most if us were just waiting for the meeting to be over. But as soon as some trivial question came up there were always a few to seize the chance to waste everyones time with some nerdy discussion while there were some acutal and serious software design fuckups in place that nobody wanted to tackle. This is the core issue with most software engineers: they are not invested enough to make something great.
I wonder what I can learn today that will benefit everyone?
I wonder what choices I can make today that would allow me to experience greater and greater fun and creativity?
Source: 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Jim Dethmer. > https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23275060-15-commitments-...
1. Write down or internally note every time you think you "should" do, be, or etc. something. (i.e. "I should do the dishes" or "I should be more disciplined")
2. Evaluate the underlying assumptions behind each "should" you've told yourself and if it helps you in any way. (i.e. "I have decided I wouldn't keep dishes in the sink more than 1 day" or "My childhood raised me with too-high rigor standards")
https://www.deepthoughtapp.com/
https://www.notion.so/aizatto/Intro-to-Deep-Thought-Using-De...
"What do I want to DO, BE, or HAVE?"
I found it grounding, centering, and it helped me to determine my goals. I still ask myself this, when I find myself without particular goals (such as if I accomplished my past goal(s)), or if I find myself bored or wanting to change direction.
In my case it's largely, but not entirely, me. No matter where I go or what I do, the biggest problem will still be there.
Whatever the answer is in your situation will narrow things down.
Take my world - embedded systems. I could work on telephones for the hard of hearing, that give (mostly older) people their social lives back. I could work on medical equipment that saves lives. I could work on airplane avionics, that also saves lives.
Or, I could work on the latest fad electronic toy for five-year-olds, trying to have it ready in time for Christmas buying.
One of these is not like the others. One means little besides money.
Then there's product life-cycle. Am I creating the medical instrument, say? Or am I adding the 42nd functional mode, that can be used in 0.2% of cases? Those 0.2% of cases really matter to the people who are those cases. There aren't many of them, though. Or am I on maintenance? That matters too, so that we can keep building the device for more customers. For me, my personality is that I like being earlier in the life-cycle - from prototype to initial release, maybe the first couple of major enhancements. After that I get bored. The work is still useful, meaningful work, but it's not as meaningful to me.
So it may not be programming. It may be that you're building something that you consider to be a waste, or that you find little joy in the part of the life-cycle you're stuck in.
I can't answer that for you. All I can do is recommend that you think about it.
You may need a change of career.
Where do you drive meaning in your life?
Who do you serve and who do you trust?
Everything exists for a reason, but normally it's hidden in all the books, blog posts, tutorials, ....
Find it out and you'll find the essence of why you're doing.
Isn't the honest answer "I don't know. No-one knows."?
In the end, most of the time you pick something because if you pick nothing, then that is even worse and then are indeed trying to do something.
One data point for you: In 2011, age 27, I left the laptop in San Francisco and took off with a backpack, thinking that I might never code again. About 2 months in I was in Thailand and randomly stumbled across an interesting book on assembly language, got myself a netbook, and was hooked. That was the last time I questioned it. I love programming and will do it as long as I'm living.
> What questions would you say one can ask themselves to really get to the bottom of it?
Is there a big question or contrarian idea that motivates you?
My biggest mistake in life has been not believing in myself when in the minority, and thinking my math or understanding of the world must be wrong and I must be the crazy one. After 2020 (when most of the world went full idiot regarding a bad flu), I realized I was completely wrong about the distribution of courage, honor, and intelligence in society, and that society is often crazy, and the ones called "crazy" by the talking heads are actually often the sane ones (Elon is a great case in point right now).
