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0 points543g43g433y ago0 comments

We won't know what the cost of solar/battery will be in a sustainable energy economy, until someone builds a solar-powered solar panel and battery factory. At the moment, productions costs are heavily (as in, entirely) subsidised by fossil fuels (mostly coal).

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6 comments · 2 top-level

moloch-hai3y ago· 2 in thread

Cost of current production is an upper bound. As power costs fall, production costs that depend on that will fall, in lockstep.

Production is not subsidized: factories pay full price for their power.

543g43g43OP3y ago

You miss my point. The reason solar is so cheap right now (along with the huge amount of government subsidies) is that the huge amount of energy required to manufacture them is currently done with very cheap coal in China.

>Cost of current production is an upper bound.

Under the current state of the energy economy, maybe. If we had to replace all manufacturing power sources with renewables - absolutely not.

moloch-hai3y ago

Power from renewables costs less than from coal.

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Schroedingersat3y ago· 2 in thread

So the energy that is cheaper than coal and driving operating coal plants out of business will make the cost of producing it go up when the share increases?

These mental gymnastics routines are olympic level.

543g43g43OP3y ago

The reason we can ignore the huge manufacturing energy inputs required to make solar panels, is because it's powered by cheap domestic coal in China.

>driving operating coal plants out of business

Any specific ones? The only coal plants I've seen get shut down are because of environmental reasons (or age). Some countries, like Germany and China, are re-opening or building new coal plants.

Talking of mental gymnastics - fundamentally, the energy economy boils down to EROI (energy returned on energy invested). It's just wishful thinking that we can replace energy sources that are basically free (coal, oil, gas), with those that have energy payback periods in the mid-double digits of their expected lifespan (solar).

Schroedingersat3y ago

Try a new solar panel rather than one from the 90s. Your Shellenberger tripe about EROI went off when the EROI of solar surpassed that of nuclear and EPBT dropped below 18 months (or 6 months in sunny countries). Then it went even more ranc

If you're really worried about it, buy a panel from europe, the polysilicon (90% of the energy) comes from hydro, wind, and nuclear powered countries.

Even if all the money for a solar module went to coal generation at chinese or indian prices and nothing else it would pay back that power in under two years.

If the only activity involved in making PV was to spend the entire system cost on lignite and burn it directly at the mine front, it would *still* produce more energy in its lifetime than putting the coal in a coal plant.

It's absolutely laughable that you think you can keep spouting this ridiculous lie.

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6 comments · 2 top-level

moloch-hai3y ago· 2 in thread

Cost of current production is an upper bound. As power costs fall, production costs that depend on that will fall, in lockstep.

Production is not subsidized: factories pay full price for their power.

543g43g43OP3y ago

>Cost of current production is an upper bound.

Under the current state of the energy economy, maybe. If we had to replace all manufacturing power sources with renewables - absolutely not.

moloch-hai3y ago

Power from renewables costs less than from coal.

1 more reply

Schroedingersat3y ago· 2 in thread

So the energy that is cheaper than coal and driving operating coal plants out of business will make the cost of producing it go up when the share increases?

These mental gymnastics routines are olympic level.

543g43g43OP3y ago

The reason we can ignore the huge manufacturing energy inputs required to make solar panels, is because it's powered by cheap domestic coal in China.

>driving operating coal plants out of business

Any specific ones? The only coal plants I've seen get shut down are because of environmental reasons (or age). Some countries, like Germany and China, are re-opening or building new coal plants.

Schroedingersat3y ago

If you're really worried about it, buy a panel from europe, the polysilicon (90% of the energy) comes from hydro, wind, and nuclear powered countries.

Even if all the money for a solar module went to coal generation at chinese or indian prices and nothing else it would pay back that power in under two years.

It's absolutely laughable that you think you can keep spouting this ridiculous lie.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse