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0 pointsmindslight3y ago0 comments

Sure, but this fear of "ending up like Gaddafi" still doesn't doesn't make for a justification, or even an explanation, of why Putin thought it was a good idea to invade a neighboring country. Egging "The West" on made that worry much closer to becoming real. If Putin wanted to be left alone, he's done the exact wrong thing.

I think the fuller explanation is that Putin got drunk on his own Kool-aid of successful propaganda ops against the West, and thought that would translate into battlefield success. Nobody thinks of themselves as a bad person, so the perspective of rulers is that people love them and want to be ruled by them. Hence why Russia started off by sending shock paratroopers to be "greeted as liberators" rather than an actual invasion force.

What I do know is the Russia-Ukraine war is a referendum on the post-WWII international order - whether those lines on a map mean something. And even despite the moral hazards from the outsized winners in that international order (eg the Iraq War), it's seeming that we're much better off with it than without it. And this applies a thousand times over if you're American or European.

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citilife3y ago

I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine. NATO was expanding to Russia's border

https://nypost.com/2021/12/23/putin-demands-nato-not-expand-...

Ukraine was hostile to the Russian people, banning their language in schools and refusing to uphold neutrality. France tried to broker a deal before the war broke out (upholding the Minsk agreements).

https://www.wsj.com/articles/putin-to-meet-macron-as-france-...

> Sure, but this fear of "ending up like Gaddafi" still doesn't doesn't make for a justification, or even an explanation, of why Putin thought it was a good idea to invade a neighboring country. Egging "The West" on made that worry much closer to becoming real. If Putin wanted to be left alone, he's done the exact wrong thing.

The west supported a coup in Ukraine, overthrowing the elected leadership of Ukraine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/22/russias-putin-accus...

Russia then attempted to negotiate with the new Ukrainian government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Ukraine openly ignored the agreement and has been seeking EU / US involvement. Immediately before Russia invaded there was a massive increase in shelling (noted by international observers as well). Which could easily lead one to believe Ukraine was about to start another push into Donbass

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-sharp-incre...

Just prior to Russia invading, Ukraine was openly discussing the attempt to obtain nuclear weapons

https://www.dailywire.com/news/president-zelensky-suggests-u...

Everything points to expansion of the west, which triggered Putin's fears.

I'm not saying he should have invaded, he effectively lost in the political influence game, so he switched to the kinetic realm. But in his mind he thinks NATO is out to destroy him and his civilization (his own words). It makes sense if you watch what the west has done to people like Gaddaffi, Serbia, or Iraq. I'm not supporting anything here, but am pointing out the mindset.

mindslightOP3y ago

Well, I guess that was my fault for giving you an opening to dump all the thoroughly-debunked copypasta. In the post-WWII international order where lines on the map are generally respected to avoid war: Russia attacked, and continues to attack, a sovereign country. Period.

If you pull it into some other paradigm than the post-WWII international order, where Russia presumably has some inherent right of conquest, then sure, you can come up with justifications of why Russia "had" to act. But as I alluded to in my last comment, if you are an American or European taking that post-WWII order for granted, you are gravely mistaken.

citilife3y ago

> thoroughly-debunked copypasta. In the post-WWII international order where lines on the map are generally respected to avoid war: Russia attacked, and continues to attack, a sovereign country. Period.

None of that has been debunked, it's quite literally factual events and treaties not honored that all parties admit weren't honored. None of those facts are in dispute by anyone.

Regardless, if you want to dive into the post-WWII international order, the right of self-determination also wasn't honored. The west aided in a coup in 2014, removing the elected leadership of Ukraine. After that, the western half of Ukraine voted to leave Ukraine. Only after 6-8 years of fighting between the Ukrainian parties did Russia become involved directly and a new vote (where they again voted to join Russia) did they in fact join Russia.

As with everything in life, it depends on perspective. I'm personally an avid pacifist. Taking a life is never justified, even in self-defense. I personally see both "sides" as acting poorly here.

That said, I can look at both arguments and obviously see Russia is acting in self-interest. Ukraine is acting in their interest. But only one side here has been having their homes shelled for 8 years (the Donbass).

staticman23y ago

I don't want to blow your mind or anything but pretending to be a more moral person than you actually are is an effective way to gain power and wealth and an immoral person will not be honest about their motivations or intentions.

reducesuffering3y ago

> I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine

I think Putin was actually extremely clear before February that Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. Oh wait, he lied.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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citilife3y ago

I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine. NATO was expanding to Russia's border

https://nypost.com/2021/12/23/putin-demands-nato-not-expand-...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/putin-to-meet-macron-as-france-...

The west supported a coup in Ukraine, overthrowing the elected leadership of Ukraine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/22/russias-putin-accus...

Russia then attempted to negotiate with the new Ukrainian government

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-sharp-incre...

Just prior to Russia invading, Ukraine was openly discussing the attempt to obtain nuclear weapons

https://www.dailywire.com/news/president-zelensky-suggests-u...

Everything points to expansion of the west, which triggered Putin's fears.

mindslightOP3y ago

citilife3y ago

None of that has been debunked, it's quite literally factual events and treaties not honored that all parties admit weren't honored. None of those facts are in dispute by anyone.

As with everything in life, it depends on perspective. I'm personally an avid pacifist. Taking a life is never justified, even in self-defense. I personally see both "sides" as acting poorly here.

staticman23y ago

reducesuffering3y ago

> I think Putin was actually extremely clear why he invaded Ukraine

I think Putin was actually extremely clear before February that Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. Oh wait, he lied.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse