undefined | Better HN

0 pointsff3173y ago0 comments

Rust is not a panacea. You can't just claim that this one emergency project somehow solves all the future bugs. Would Linux being rewritten in mostly-Rust help with some classes of memory bugs some of the time? Sure. Would there be a lot of other tradeoffs to consider, are there risks, would there still be plenty of kernel CVEs going forward? Yes to all of these.

0 comments

UncleMeat3y ago

Rust is absolutely not a panacea. Other kinds of vulns can absolutely exist. But vulns caused by memory-safety errors are so incredibly common in Linux and other critical software that it should be embarrassing. If we could get to a world where all of our kernel-level vulns were logical errors rather than UAFs I would weep with joy.

I'm not saying that using memory-safe languages (or a different kernel design that at least isolates bugs like this) fixes security forever. I'm saying that it would dramatically increase the cost of developing an exploit for the world's most important piece of software.

I'll even soften my request. Let's forget about memory safety. Let's just talk about regression tests. How the fuck is it possible for a vuln to regress in the kernel because nobody added a test when it was first fixed? This is a disaster. Everybody has just somehow decided that the current state of things is tolerable and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

galangalalgol3y ago

If we can't even get people to put static analysis in their pipelines how are we going to get them to switch to rust? If everyone that used c++ for instance built in clang and g++ both, ran cppcheck and clang tidy, and ran both asan and ubsan, we still wouldn't get rid of all the memory bugs rust eliminates by simply compiling, unless you have 100% code and branch coverage to make sure *san are doing their jobs.

The easiest path to sanity is probably rust, but we can't even get static analysis to be a norm...

UncleMeat3y ago

> If we can't even get people to put static analysis in their pipelines how are we going to get them to switch to rust?

I don't know. Somehow we need to shift industry culture. The good news is that this has been done. In the past, things we now take for granted like source control and unit tests weren't norms. Maybe someday tools like static analysis, fuzzing, and considerations for memory safety will be industry norms. I hope so.

IshKebab3y ago

Nobody is claiming Rust would prevent all bugs, just a huge proportion of them. At least 70%, I would argue even more.

But yes it should also be accompanied by better security architecture, i.e. not running network drivers in a monolithic kernel.

yjftsjthsd-h3y ago

Okay, so switch to Redox?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

UncleMeat3y ago

galangalalgol3y ago

The easiest path to sanity is probably rust, but we can't even get static analysis to be a norm...

UncleMeat3y ago

> If we can't even get people to put static analysis in their pipelines how are we going to get them to switch to rust?

IshKebab3y ago

Nobody is claiming Rust would prevent all bugs, just a huge proportion of them. At least 70%, I would argue even more.

But yes it should also be accompanied by better security architecture, i.e. not running network drivers in a monolithic kernel.

yjftsjthsd-h3y ago

Okay, so switch to Redox?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse