One that saves face, to at least some degree.
> There is a simple first step towards redemption and that is get out of Ukraine right now. Better yesterday.
Simple for you, because you're not the one losing face For example, here's another "simple first step" for Europe "towards redemption" (in the eyes of the Russians): withdraw all military and financial support for Ukraine, and refuse to allow transit for weapons sent to it. How does that one make you feel? Do you think Europe will take it? It's probably only a little less likely than Russia taking your option.
Russia is fighting a war of aggression in Ukraine. Do they have interests there? Sure, but that doesn’t give them the right to invade and topple the government.
Before you ask, yes the US is extremely guilty of this exact same behavior, it is also wrong.
This war started because Putin won’t accept anything less then complete fealty from the leaders of Ukraine/Belarus, and the 2014 revolution that threw out Yanikovich meant that they didn’t have a leader that was 100% on their side in Ukraine.
No, it's rooted in the notion that Russia has it's own POV, and it's that POV that will determine its actions. The GGP's "simple first step" is nonsense, because it didn't recognize that POV.
> but an analysis of the war needs to be rooted in what’s right and what’s wrong.
And if someone (like an adversary) doesn't share your views about what’s right and what’s wrong, they'll reject your analysis and any recommendations based on it.
What are you talking about? I never said anything about a “simple first step”
> appeals to right and wrong are only persuasive for people who are aligned with you one that
Look, I’m all for understanding the other side, but don’t take empathy so far that morality has no meaning.
I don't think such an analysis is 100% useful because because that's not the main criteria that countries use to make their decisions. The main criteria are strategic and economical considerations. Ethical considerations are nice to have but they are more often used to justify a decision based on furthering strategic/economic goals. The US has played a blinder on this one.
Has US ever suffered sanctions for that? I don't remember any.
> This war started because Putin won’t accept anything less then complete fealty from the leaders of Ukraine/Belarus
How do you know this? Did Putin said this personally to you? Announced this in the media?
You attribute to him something that western propaganda fakes like it's some irrefutable absolute and complete truth.
BTW, do you remember that before it all started, Russia explicitly asked for guarantees that NATO won't expand further towards Russian borders and that request blatantly refused by the West.
Also, your media probably do not say that Ukrainian politicians repeatedly announced plans to exterminate Russian population of Ukraine. Physically kill all the Russians just as Hitler (he's considered a hero in Ukraine) wanted. You'd probably never find this in English or any other language spoken on the West, but there is plenty of evidence in Russian/Ukrainian even though a lot of it being scrubbed in the last 200 days. Still you can find a lot of those on YouTube for example, if you can understand Russian/Ukrainian.
You'll never be able to get a complete picture of what was and what is happening here because you can read and understand only what is fed to you by your media and this information is heavily biased to put it politely.
> the 2014 revolution that threw out Yanikovich
It wasn't a revolution - it was a coup funded and organized by the EU and USA.
I don’t doubt that there was western involvement, just as there was certainly Russian involvement supporting prior administrations. While it can be difficult to discern the true desires of Ukrainians given outside involvement, its very easy to say that the current government in Ukraine is much more democratic than plenty of US Allies in other parts of the world, eg the Middle East.
> Also, your media probably do not say that Ukrainian politicians repeatedly announced plans to exterminate Russian population of Ukraine. Physically kill all the Russians just as Hitler (he's considered a hero in Ukraine) wanted. You'd probably never find this in English or any other language spoken on the West, but there is plenty of evidence in Russian/Ukrainian even though a lot of it being scrubbed in the last 200 days. Still you can find a lot of those on YouTube for example, if you can understand Russian/Ukrainian.
If this is so easy to find, why not provide actual sources?
Edit: the irony here is the extremely close parallels between this war and hitter’s annexation of the sudentenland.
> How do you know this? Did Putin said this personally to you? Announced this in the media?
I can tell from his actions. Russia has been invading its neighbors the entire time he’s been in power.
Did I go a bit overboard when I said “complete fealty”? Sure. But it’s quite obvious that Putin won’t accept those states as anything less than Russian client states within its sphere of influence.
> Has US ever suffered sanctions for that? I don't remember any.
US does bad things so other countries should do bad things too.
The EU clearly believes they can win this fight so why should it withdraw support to Ukraine?
I would imagine there is a similar point of view in many Russians regarding the West (and they can make arguments about abuses and how intrinsically evil the other party is and patriotic jingles and all that too).
So how, on that road, does this end?
I think we know the answer and it really and truly is awful and the end of the world we have previously known.
>> Simple for you, because you're not the one losing face For example, here's another "simple first step" for Europe "towards redemption" (in the eyes of the Russians): withdraw all military and financial support for Ukraine, and refuse to allow transit for weapons sent to it. How does that one make you feel? Do you think Europe will take it? It's probably only a little less likely than Russia taking your option.
> It works both ways you know. Europe cannot afford to lose face either. Imagine EU can be blackmailed by Russia! Wouldn't stand a chance against the US or China.
Exactly my point.
> The EU clearly believes they can win this fight so why should it withdraw support to Ukraine?
I never said they should. I said that a proposal that Russia unilaterally withdraw is not actually an "easy" one because it would feel to the Russian leadership like the EU withdrawing would feel to your typical Westerner.
America forced the EU into a proxy war with Russia... by having Russia invade Ukraine? Sounds like somebody has been huffing Russian propaganda.
Only cowards need to save face.
