undefined | Better HN

0 pointsmaxk423y ago0 comments

> When you say European, except for the fact that Tolkien wrote the story, what part of the show thus far has given you an explicit European feel?

"Middle Earth" was an old phrase used to refer to Western Europe in several Scandinavian languages. Tolkien, being a linguist, would have known this and chosen that turn of phrase deliberately.

0 comments

4 comments · 2 top-level

onepunchedman3y ago· 2 in thread

You are missing my argument completely. What I'm saying is that yes, Tolkien may have envisioned Middle Earth as proto-European fantasy, but when you're arguing for "historical accuracy", you can't pick and choose. You're arguing about skin color as if a) no people of color lived in Europe at the time, and b) you're completely avoiding touching on the origin of Tolkien's evil races and nations, and in particular orcs. If hobbits, men, and elves need to be white, then orcs necessarily need to be black and brown people, no? They need to be uncivilised brutes who only want to destroy with no mind of their own? That is a simplified depiction of Tolkien's works, but do you think that those prejudices hold, or that they should be depicted in modern media? If yes, then you are a bigot and a racist, and if no, it's WEIRD how the inclusion of people of color is where you're putting your foot down.

PS: read "you" as in the collective you, not you specifically.

infamia3y ago

> You're arguing about skin color as if a) no people of color lived in Europe at the time, and b) you're completely avoiding touching on the origin of Tolkien's evil races and nations, and in particular orcs. If hobbits, men, and elves need to be white, then orcs necessarily need to be black and brown people, no?

The problem with line of thought is that Lossarnach which mustered to Minas Tirith during the seige of Gondor were described as swarthy (i.e. dark skinned).

Also, the Easterlings were poignantly humanized by Sam.

"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

All of this is a far cry from the stark dark people bad racism you've posted about a couple of times now.

Finally, the orcs also had slanted eyes, did Tolkien also hate Asians? Are Orcs supposed to be African or Asian? Pegging orcs as "dark people" simply doesn't fit as orcs don't closely match any ethnic group in particular. Orcs aren't even a single race for that matter. In any case, dark skinned=bad sounds a lot like allegory, which Tolkien finds distasteful. It is my theory that due to the time we all live in, you are (subconsciously most likely) hammering a square racism peg in a round hold.

ironcurtain3y ago

Would you mind explaining how - even in this fantasy world - people living in closed societies would get wildly different features? Somehow elves are different from human who are different from gnomes - it there are 2-3 afro elves or afro-hobbits? That’s what’s jarring about “per quota” insertion of minorities - because it contradicts our experience. One can make southerons look Persian or Indian, but having a token minority is just laughable. And throwing around virtue signaling is not helping your argument.

tptacek3y ago

I'm pretty sure Shakespeare knew what a woman was, but they weren't cast in any of his plays. I doubt Tolkien would give a shit whether actors with dark skin played any of his characters.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse