undefined | Better HN

0 pointsManuel_D3y ago0 comments

There's no viable way to build storage at the scale required to run a wind and solar grid. Even building just 1 hour of electricity storage amounts to 2,500 GWh. The entire world's annual output of battery storage is somewhere between 300 and 400 GWh. Any attempt at grid scale storage would lead to shortages driving up prices.

Similar bottlenecks occur with pumped hydroelectricity. To build it economically you not only need an alpine lake handy, it also needs to be close to transportation infrastructure. As those sites are developed, we'd turn to more and more remote sites.

0 comments

10 comments · 2 top-level

ncmncm3y ago· 6 in thread

As has been pointed out to you many times before, there is no need to use batteries to store utility-scale energy, so battery production capacity is immaterial. Mentioning battery production of the moment again is disingenuous, not to say dishonest. Production capacity, anyway, increases with demand.

The key principle of bulk energy storage is E = Fx, applied liberally worldwide for centuries. It is taught to every freshman engineering student. Nothing blocks further application of the principle, at any scale.

And as has been pointed out numerous times, no existing alpine lake is needed for hydro storage. And, the site does not need substantial "transportation infrastructure". Dozens of hydro dams, still in use, were built in California's Sierra Nevada mountains in the 1920s via roads a car cannot use.

SECProto3y ago

> The key principle of bulk energy storage is E = Fx, applied liberally worldwide for centuries. It is taught to every freshman engineering student

Hi there, I graduated engineering and am currently applying for professional licensure. I took only one course focused on energy, but I've never heard of E=Fx. Googling it brought up no relevant results. Could you expand on what it is?

lumost3y ago

They are likely referring to force * distance = energy. Which in context is a pitch for pumped hydro storage.

This all sounds well and good, however it’s highly unclear that utility scale pumped hydro is viable. To make it work you need to have plentiful water, limited evaporative loss/other losses, and two large basins to store both the charge, and discharge of water.

In the event of drought, these facilities could become impractical. Hydro facilities have their own environmental concerns. Combined with shifting climates and rainfall patterns there are many challenges to be solved. (some of which go away if the hydro storage is in underground ceiled chambers… which also has a cost associated)

1 more reply

ncmncm3y ago

You may go back to your freshman physics textbook.

If you get a professional engineering license without recalling basic Newtonian physics, that just tells us the licensing process has utterly failed us.

2 more replies

Manuel_DOP3y ago

Then what will be used for grid-scale storage if not batteries and hydroelectricity?

> And as has been pointed out numerous times, no existing alpine lake is needed for hydro storage. And, the site does not need substantial "transportation infrastructure". Dozens of hydro dams, still in use, were built in California's Sierra Nevada mountains in the 1920s via roads a car cannot use.

Such as? How did they get heavy machinery to these dams to build them? All of the dams I can find like the Shasta dam, Orville dam, etc are in fact close to major transportation infrastructure.

adrianN3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

1 more reply

ncmncm3y ago

Disingenuity is deceptive everywhere it appears. Know that you are not fooling anybody.

1 more reply

pfdietz3y ago· 2 in thread

Pointing to one or two current storage technologies as evidence that the problem is fundamentally unsolvable is quite a logical leap.

Can we apply the same reasoning and conclude that because existing nuclear reactors are inadequate, no possible future nuclear reactors can be adequate?

Why does pumped hydro have to be close to transportation infrastructure, btw? Can one not build roads or rail lines?

Manuel_DOP3y ago

The point is that no existing storage system is sufficient and thus solar and wind is really solar, wind, and fossil fuels. And nuclear power is indeed sufficient. They can indeed modulate power output, and we have the capacity to build them at the required scale. Some countries already have, like France.

> Why does pumped hydro have to be close to transportation infrastructure, btw? Can one not build roads or rail lines?

You can, but the more remote the build site the more expensive it becomes.

pfdietz3y ago

Current nuclear technology isn't sufficient either. A world powered by nuclear burner reactors runs out of uranium very quickly. Breeder reactors or seawater uranium extraction would be needed, and neither of these are "existing" in the sense you're using for storage.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

10 comments · 2 top-level

ncmncm3y ago· 6 in thread

SECProto3y ago

> The key principle of bulk energy storage is E = Fx, applied liberally worldwide for centuries. It is taught to every freshman engineering student

lumost3y ago

They are likely referring to force * distance = energy. Which in context is a pitch for pumped hydro storage.

1 more reply

ncmncm3y ago

You may go back to your freshman physics textbook.

If you get a professional engineering license without recalling basic Newtonian physics, that just tells us the licensing process has utterly failed us.

2 more replies

Manuel_DOP3y ago

Then what will be used for grid-scale storage if not batteries and hydroelectricity?

Such as? How did they get heavy machinery to these dams to build them? All of the dams I can find like the Shasta dam, Orville dam, etc are in fact close to major transportation infrastructure.

adrianN3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

1 more reply

ncmncm3y ago

Disingenuity is deceptive everywhere it appears. Know that you are not fooling anybody.

1 more reply

pfdietz3y ago· 2 in thread

Pointing to one or two current storage technologies as evidence that the problem is fundamentally unsolvable is quite a logical leap.

Can we apply the same reasoning and conclude that because existing nuclear reactors are inadequate, no possible future nuclear reactors can be adequate?

Why does pumped hydro have to be close to transportation infrastructure, btw? Can one not build roads or rail lines?

Manuel_DOP3y ago

> Why does pumped hydro have to be close to transportation infrastructure, btw? Can one not build roads or rail lines?

You can, but the more remote the build site the more expensive it becomes.

pfdietz3y ago

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse