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0 pointscolechristensen3y ago0 comments

Order the legal entities which possess the shares to transfer ownership of them. Actually keeping track of stocks is complicated but ultimately a boring bureaucracy.

0 comments

Victerius3y ago

Thanks. Further questions:

(1) Would it be legal for someone to own the legal entity owning their shares of publicly traded companies?

(2) What if he moves all of his stock in offshore accounts?

colechristensenOP3y ago

The one used by most is DTCC, it’s basically owned by the banks who use it, not something that could be bought.

The legal entity which maintains the list of teslas owners is ultimately tesla, but that duty will be likely given to dtcc.

A stock is ultimately just an entry on a list maintained by the company, most offload the managing of the list to DTCC and usually the pointer isn’t to you but to your broker dealer.

There is no sense of being able to hide ownership overseas, we’re talking about an American company keeping a list that points to someone, that list can’t be offshored.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_&_Clearing_...

jaycroft3y ago

A little more nuanced take: the transfer agent maintains a list of shareholders at the company's behest, the DTCC is one step further down the chain, operating as a clearinghouse between brokers and banks. The list of shareholders is managed by the company or it's bookkeeper, the "transfer agent". Insiders and people who own paper certificates are on the list kept by the transfer agent, directly owning their shares on the company's books, alongside Cede & Co (a partner of the DTCC), who owns the bulk of all publicly traded shares. Cede & Co, and it's partner, the DTCC, then maintain a list of which shares beneficially belong to each of the DTCC members (brokerages, banks). The brokerages and banks in turn maintain lists of which clients beneficially own the brokerage's shares.

For one commonly used transfer agent's take, see: https://www.computershare.com/us/becoming-a-registered-share...

1 more reply

bradknowles3y ago

Note that the last time I checked, DTCC had over one quadrillion dollars of assets under management. They operate at a financial scale unlike any other entity on the planet.

For them, $44b is the crumb left behind after you've eaten the small potatoes.

balderdash3y ago

Totally agree with not being able to hide owner ship (especially when are a director, major shareholder, and ceo) but I think DTCC is really only in the mix when you buy/sell shares via an exchange, and their focus is the settlement between brokers and exchanges. The registrar and transfer agent is who maintains the list of share holders (Computershare is the resgistrar and transfer agent for Tesla).

Victerius3y ago

Thanks. I'm always curious about the practical logistics behind things.

1 more reply

balderdash3y ago

He (or an entity he owns and controls) owns the shares, and and another company (computershare in the case of Tesla) maintains a list of all the shareholders (registrar and transfer agent). No one else “owns” them

He may just own the shares directly with the company (we’ve largely done away with paper share certificates). Or he may have transferred them to his broker (Morgan Stanley?) (who in turn might custody them with a custodian BNY Mellon?) who holds them on his behalf. If he then transferred those shares to say DBS in Singapore MS/BNY is going to inform computershare “fyi we just sent all those Elon musk shares to DBS in Singapore” and DBS is going to say (FYI we know have custody of all those Elon musk shares)..,and when you go looking for those shares all you have to do is go to computershare with a court order and say where are Elon’s shares, and they’ll be like, oh over at DBS in Singapore… and for all I know the registrar can probably just send a note to DBS in Singapore and be like (ahh we got a court order to transfer these shares to some other guys so we did, subtract $44b from his account)

All of this is a long winded way of saying that “shares” are just entries on a ledger maintained by the company or someone else on their behalf, which makes seizing them, typically pretty easy…

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

Victerius3y ago

Thanks. Further questions:

(1) Would it be legal for someone to own the legal entity owning their shares of publicly traded companies?

(2) What if he moves all of his stock in offshore accounts?

colechristensenOP3y ago

The one used by most is DTCC, it’s basically owned by the banks who use it, not something that could be bought.

The legal entity which maintains the list of teslas owners is ultimately tesla, but that duty will be likely given to dtcc.

A stock is ultimately just an entry on a list maintained by the company, most offload the managing of the list to DTCC and usually the pointer isn’t to you but to your broker dealer.

There is no sense of being able to hide ownership overseas, we’re talking about an American company keeping a list that points to someone, that list can’t be offshored.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_&_Clearing_...

jaycroft3y ago

For one commonly used transfer agent's take, see: https://www.computershare.com/us/becoming-a-registered-share...

1 more reply

bradknowles3y ago

Note that the last time I checked, DTCC had over one quadrillion dollars of assets under management. They operate at a financial scale unlike any other entity on the planet.

For them, $44b is the crumb left behind after you've eaten the small potatoes.

balderdash3y ago

Victerius3y ago

Thanks. I'm always curious about the practical logistics behind things.

1 more reply

balderdash3y ago

All of this is a long winded way of saying that “shares” are just entries on a ledger maintained by the company or someone else on their behalf, which makes seizing them, typically pretty easy…

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse