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0 pointsEGreg14y ago0 comments

I thought this way for a while too, although not about everything. Actually some things can be really fake while others are actually simply thoughtful! It's the way you are taught to think about it.

Let me give you a small example. You know about etiquette right? In every country it's different. Are you manipulating people because you behave differently at Church/Synagogue/etc. and in a bar, or with your parents, or at a dinner table? Are you manipulating people by trying to learn their language and making sure you talk about what's important to THEM an not just whats important to you? I am sure that put this way, you think it's actually all good things. Yet, once we start going further and looking at it more mechanically, it starts to seem disgusting to you and to many people. Perhaps it has to do with the Uncanny Valley actually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Here is the thing. You want people to not be systematic and strategic to a large extent when meeting other people, except where everyone in society is already being shamed into doing it. Why? I think it is because when someone becomes systematic and strategic, then any particular interaction seems like it's just a pawn in a larger scheme, doesn't mean as much to the one being strategic, and for the most part this is unfortunately true. On the other hand, greater mastery over a domain lets you make better moves, and over time gives you more connections and more experience so that you can actually HELP people in ways you couldn't before. An experienced salesman can sell your pretty good product that you couldn't sell yourself, and you can rely on him to do so, even though you might think his sales tactics are "scammy" at first blush. A person who knows a lot of people after many years is able to connect you to the right people even though they have such a large network that you can't possibly imagine they have close relationships with most of them, yet they help you and you appreciate it. Winston Churchill made sure to remember the name and interests of each person he spoke to at dinners. Is he being manipulative and strategic? Maybe. But people loved him.

I think the bottom line here is this: forget the "stigma" that society forces you to attach to actually putting thought and strategy into achieving things when it comes to meeting people, organizing things, etc. If you are producing a result that HELPS EVERYONE INVOLVED, then you are actually doing a good thing. The litmus test is, if you encountered someone who was a master at what you are trying to do, would you be HAPPY that they did this to you, or NOT happy?

I think most of it is about being aware of what the other person really needs and wants, and working to give it to them. For example when a nightclub promoter invites you (a guy) what he really would like is for you to bring a girl or two to the event, so more alcohol will be sold. If you don't, he may be glad you came but ultimately if you did, he would be way happier because you are helping him. You may say, "well, you USED the girls to get more points with the promoter". But you also USED the promoter to help the girls! They all get free drinks and a great time, and meet more people. And they also think you are a cool guy that they had a great time with that night. So everyone wants to see you again.

Look at the suggestion at the end of my post. Do you really consider it creepy that you take your friends' business cards, ask them who they are desperately looking to meet, and actually talk them up to people whenever you feel that you might make a good match? And then ask your friends to do the same once you have made some results for them? Is it weird that you have a group of guys who remember to meet girls for their friends and invite them all to a big house party so they can introduce their friends and generally hang out and have a good time? Is "every man for himself" the only non fake strategy? Or is it actually MORE fake? The guy has to generate all the social proof out of thin air, and at the end of the day, the first strategy attracts people far more, because a group of cool people who respect each other is more attractive. Why not be part of one.

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gnaritas14y ago· 2 in thread

> A person who knows a lot of people after many years is able to connect you to the right people even though they have such a large network that you can't possibly imagine they have close relationships with most of them

Yes, and I've met many people like that, and I never like any of them. They're all fake users of other people. They become people you only care to talk to when you need something and you know they probably know someone. Useful, sure, but people I want to ever hang out with, nope.

Worse, if you're not careful, they're constantly giving your name to people who just want to use you for some purpose thinking you'll help for free because they know so and so.

> Do you really consider it creepy that you take your friends' business cards, ask them who they are desperately looking to meet, and actually talk them up to people whenever you feel that you might make a good match?

Yes. That kind of thing should happen naturally, because I actually want to do it, it would bother me if someone asked me to talk them up.

> For example when a nightclub promoter invites you (a guy) what he really would like is for you to bring a girl or two to the event, so more alcohol will be sold.

I don't think you're relating well to hackers. Such a thing has never and likely will never in my life happen. I've never even met a night club promoter, and if I did, I wouldn't be interested in talking to him anyway, nor would I go to a night club.

> Is it weird that you have a group of guys who remember to meet girls for their friends and invite them all to a big house party so they can introduce their friends and generally hang out and have a good time?

Yes, again, I would never go to a house party full of people I don't know, wouldn't care to, wouldn't enjoy it.

You're clearly an extrovert and don't seem to understand none of this sounds at all appealing to introverts. You all sound fake and creepy and I'd be bothered to even think you had a strategy for generating social proof.

> Why not be part of one.

Because I wouldn't like people who behaved that way. They're fake, annoying, think they have 100 friends when they don't really know what the word means, and they use everyone around them. These are not attractive people to me. Write me an article on meeting people that I actually like and then I'm interested. Meeting people should be about quality, not quantity.

EGregOP14y ago

Quality comes later. You do this kind of thing to get ahead in a certain world where you want to achieve something that you wouldn't normally achieve if you did things, as you say, "naturally".

Like I said you can be creepy and a "user" if you do it only for yourself. Or you can focus on helping people and connecting them like Ron Conway for example. It happens in all sorts of human interactions.

You say you would never go to a house party full of people you don't know. Would you go to one that has lots of people you do know -- i.e. your friends?

Let me ask you something ... as an introvert, how do you plan to meet someone e.g. a girl you are attracted to, if your immediate circle of friends wouldn't introduce you to one? How do you meet people if you never go to events full of people you don't know?

Actors in hollywood, etc. have to hustle and make connections. Same goes for musicians, comedians any other performing art. They can't ALL be creepy can they?

What I can tell you is this. A lot of people you meet who make you feel good do it by having empathy and UNDERSTANDING where you are coming from. If you do this systematically with everyone (e.g. think about what a promoter would appreciate before coming to the party) then you aren't being creepy, you are being considerate. And people like that. Yes, this generates social proof, but that's the next level. You generate things bigger than yourself. Just because you are able to "hack" the system doesn't mean you're a bad person, if you are helping everyone.

gnaritas14y ago

> You do this kind of thing to get ahead in a certain world where you want to achieve something that you wouldn't normally achieve if you did things, as you say, "naturally".

I don't want to live in that world.

> You say you would never go to a house party full of people you don't know. Would you go to one that has lots of people you do know -- i.e. your friends?

Certainly. New people are fine in moderation, I'd just never go to a party full of strangers. It'd be no fun at all.

> Let me ask you something ... as an introvert, how do you plan to meet someone e.g. a girl you are attracted to, if your immediate circle of friends wouldn't introduce you to one? How do you meet people if you never go to events full of people you don't know?

You don't have to actively seek to attempt to introduce new people to your social circles to run into them anyway. You meet friends of friends without it being planned. You meet new people when following your own interests as a side effect without meeting new people being the goal.

> Actors in hollywood, etc. have to hustle and make connections. Same goes for musicians, comedians any other performing art. They can't ALL be creepy can they?

Yea, they pretty much are, because they're always selling something, always trying to use you in one way or another to forward their cause; it's annoying, insulting, self centered, and causes many introverts to avoid these types of people all together.

> If you do this systematically with everyone (e.g. think about what a promoter would appreciate before coming to the party) then you aren't being creepy, you are being considerate

I agree with that. But if you're being considerate while also thinking how can I use this to my advantage, then it's no longer considerate even though it appears to be. To me it's not your actions that make something considerate, it's your intentions.

If I met someone who consistently helped me out here and there, but I also noticed that every time, it also helped him out in some way then I would no longer consider what he does friendly, I'd consider it manipulative and avoid socializing with that person. Real friends help you even when it's not to their benefit, not just when it's convenient to them.

This is all just how I feel of course, but I doubt I'm alone in this regard. I'm sure many introverts feel the same.

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