Ask HN: Software Engineering with no post-secondary degree?

I'm 41 and started programming when I was 10, doing assembly language by the time I was 15. I have played with digital and analog electronics since I was 5. I taught myself calculus and numerical analysis at 12. I was, and would still be, interested in computing, whether I got paid or not. If you have that level of passion and self-learning, you can succeed without a degree.

I dropped out of college after 2.5 years. I worked at a gas station for 5 years while continuing to do research and programming at home or during graveyard shift. I finally got a job at a computer company due to a friend. Once you get in the door, if you're good, you can make it.

I've had bad managers in the past who've kept my salary down because I didn't have a degree, and said so in the performance review (one actually used the word "glass ceiling"). I've had other managers turn around and pay twice as much and not care at all about the degree. Given my age and 15+ years of experience in a very specific field of computing, the degree issue doesn't come up much anymore like it did when I was in my 20's and 30's.

Some will not consider your application because you don't have a degree. Some (especially HR types) do it because they don't trust people without degrees. Others do it because they must put a degree requirement on the job due to obscure clauses in labor regulations, e.g., H1B visas, NSF or other grants, or, under some interpretations of US Labor Law, even the "professional" designation for salaried (overtime exempt) positions. Still others do it because they want to set the bar high for candidates, and even if you're more experienced than a Ph.D. fresh out of college, they cannot consider you because then they would have to consider everyone without a degree or face discrimination charges.

That happened to me once -- the hiring manager checked references and knew I was legit, but said that since the originally posted job description said a degree was required, they could not consider me because their HR department was strict on anti-discrimination laws. Another company was working out how to get around the degree requirement but I got a position at another company before they could get back to me.

Someone said "if you don't finish undergrad, you can't go to grad school". Actually that's misleading. You can get honorary Ph.D.'s, or get hired as research staff, if you've demonstrated enough contributions and have a professor who will be your advocate. Not saying it's easy though.

Given the growing backlash against college education (see College Conspiracy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE ), and the economic climate, employers seem more willing than before to consider non-degreed candidates who are perfect matches for the job. But they must be very good matches. A computer generalist who is just out of college or never finished college, and doesn't have any special skills related to the job, faces a much harder time now.

Second, unless you have a plan don't drop out. The best advice I've ever received, which I routinely ask myself all the time, is simply, 'Do you have a plan?'. If you've some clear cut goals that you don't need college to achieve then by all means pursue them. But if you don't, that degree will help you lay down the foundation for a path. More specifically, it will open doors for you and is a great networking opportunity.

Lastly, you sound like you are in calc based physics and calc I at the same time? I did this too. Go to the tutoring center in your physics department and get a grad student to help you. The amount of calculus you need to know for physics I is really simple stuff. Don't bother yourself trying to learn _why_ it works, but rather simply learn exactly when and where you need to apply it. By the end of physics I was integrating velocity into position on tests without any clue why it worked.

I don't have a great answer for you other than, 1) focus on becoming more efficient at your studies and/or 2) realign/cut back on your course load so that you can actually learn and retain the information. Short of that and you'll just be wasting your time and money.

BTW I have posted a similar question here, coming from a slightly different perspective of one without a CS degree who has somehow wound up in programming. I create some excellent solutions that are valued by others, but wouldn't presume to call myself an "engineer," and I'm fine with that. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3063828

I've done really well for myself with 2 1/3 years of a degree (in Chinese!) I started off dropping out of Chicago for money reasons, and lucked into a sysadmin/programming job with the University. I was able to move laterally until I found something that fit me better than my original gig; I stuck it out for a few years until the private sector started returning my calls.

I am largely self-taught, which has its advantages and the obvious disadvantages, particularly as how I am the sort of learner who needs the social aspects of classroom interaction to really pick stuff up fast. But I discovered that taking jobs with people who are much smarter than you, and then taking the time to help them with shit work, is almost as good a learning environment as a classroom.

I've bounced around a lot; but not since the first couple of jobs has anybody asked about my incomplete degree. It's a results orientated business; I know that there are jobs that I won't be able to get -- and, to be honest, that I wouldn't be good at -- because of my lack of a formal CS education; but the jobs that I get, I work hard, learn new stuff, and get shit done.

But I've worked on really cool stuff, learnt a lot about digital video, started a company, and now am comfortably employed in a position where I can use the social and technical skills that I've developed to really make a difference.

EDIT: One important thing you need to figure out is how you learn best. Some people clone a github project and just learn Lambda Prolog by reading source; some peruse books; I've meet some wizardly hackers who seem to know every possible thing already. As I said above, I need to talk about stuff to really get it to stick, but that's me. Know how you learn and put yourself in a position to maximize your opportunity to learn, because everybody is dumber and less knowledgable than someone else.

Can you get a tech job without a degree? Yes

Can you advance without it? Yes

Will there be non-tech folks that skated through easy majors that look at you askance without it? Yes

But something to consider.... Undergrads are cattle in Most schools. They pay the bolls that keep schools going, but aren't what the professors care about. In grad school I learned and enjoyed the coursework 10x over undergrad. But you need that undergrad paper first. If you can't afford undergrad, do it at a public school.

And some jobs flat out don't care about degrees, just so long as you can do the work.

You might consider transferring to a different school. Cornell College, for instance, offers a one-class-at-a-time schedule, so you could do your proposed, "study calculus, then study physics" sequence. And Olin College is reputedly very good for teaching engineering-oriented subjects.

But an engineer should have the chops one gets from doing the academic obstacle course.

Good luck.