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0 pointsoctagonal4y ago0 comments

I was lucky enough to experience a 2 year long project in which everything that went wrong was blamed on the developers. Project managers breathing down your neck, feeling so pressured you barely dare take a bathroom break, the whole shebang.

Quit working for them and now I'm a freelance dev.

They asked me to get back on the project and I said fine, that'll be €700/day. After some grumbling they realized they had no other option so they agreed.

The project is still failing due to bad management but I no longer care. I believe to now feel the same sense of calm around chaos and failure like you do.

A lot of developers have real mental scars from bad projects like this, because they get duped into thinking it's a matter of personal pride to see it trough.

It's not. Your primary concern should always be personal health.

0 comments

urthor4y ago

700 a day???

Why did you undercharge by so much.

I know the EU dev market isn't great but those are rookie numbers for "danger money."

Three of the "retired, then handed enough money to unretire" COBAL guys at my old place were doing 2500 a day.

sandos4y ago

Well, cobol is special of course. The more specialized you are... But for a generic c++, java or c# or web dev I would say you can't charge specialist money at all in the EU.

urthor4y ago

Well it's a negotiation. Those guys succeeded at asking for 2500, but you would start at a number they are guaranteed to say no to, and work your way down.

Like the going rate for a senior here is 900, and a good senior is 1200+. So your starting offer would be at least 1800, probably 2000s to round it up.

Which is the high end of your zone of possible agreement (900-1200) plus 50% for danger money, plus a few hundred to round it up to 2k.

Then you see what happens when you throw out the big number.

1 more reply

Jolter4y ago

Where do you live that 700€ a DAY is low pay? It’s, that’s MORE than 700$ a day, not less.

Consider that most parts of the world have lower cost of living than the Bay Area.

alistairSH4y ago

That’s roughly equivalent to 120,000 Euro/year once normalized for taxes (~50% for self-employed, ~30% for employees).

I have no idea what typical salaries are in the EU, but that’s on the low end of mid-career for much of the US.

3 more replies

Fiahil4y ago

600EUR is a base rate for a freelancer in France. Remember, half of it goes to taxes.

tibbetts4y ago

I prefer to be paid based on how valuable my work is to the employer, not the cost of living wherever I happen to be or even my personal financial needs.

1 more reply

throwaway220324y ago

Standard day rate for any software contractor in London at the low end four years ago.

Probably higher now.

1 more reply

benhurmarcel4y ago

To give a point of reference, an employed senior engineer in mechanical/aerospace in western Europe makes about 250-300€/day, before taxes. So 175-200€/day after taxes.

Fiahil4y ago

I second this, I know some French freelancers billing 3500 EUR per day for high-level, customer-facing, devops work.

The least you could do for "danger money" is 1200 EUR a day (and limit yourself to 4 days a week, but that's another story).

mattbee4y ago

I know! I did a sharp I take of breath at that number too!

arendtio4y ago

It depends on the country/region. In eastern Europe 700€ is okay, in western Europe it is rather cheap.

nickkell4y ago

Especially if they were contacted directly and not having to pay an additional cut to a recruiter/agency

rehash34y ago

Amazon's orientation and internal culture is structured to make one think that it is a matter of personal pride and worth and if you do not align you are worthless.. it is a mind F** for fresh college hires.. I like to think Amazon is the tech industries' Pedo***..

hughrr4y ago

Spot on. Another relative point to note is that I learned pride should be ranked well below dignity.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 pointsoctagonal4y ago0 comments

Quit working for them and now I'm a freelance dev.

They asked me to get back on the project and I said fine, that'll be €700/day. After some grumbling they realized they had no other option so they agreed.

The project is still failing due to bad management but I no longer care. I believe to now feel the same sense of calm around chaos and failure like you do.

A lot of developers have real mental scars from bad projects like this, because they get duped into thinking it's a matter of personal pride to see it trough.

It's not. Your primary concern should always be personal health.

0 comments

urthor4y ago

700 a day???

Why did you undercharge by so much.

I know the EU dev market isn't great but those are rookie numbers for "danger money."

Three of the "retired, then handed enough money to unretire" COBAL guys at my old place were doing 2500 a day.

sandos4y ago

Well, cobol is special of course. The more specialized you are... But for a generic c++, java or c# or web dev I would say you can't charge specialist money at all in the EU.

urthor4y ago

Well it's a negotiation. Those guys succeeded at asking for 2500, but you would start at a number they are guaranteed to say no to, and work your way down.

Like the going rate for a senior here is 900, and a good senior is 1200+. So your starting offer would be at least 1800, probably 2000s to round it up.

Which is the high end of your zone of possible agreement (900-1200) plus 50% for danger money, plus a few hundred to round it up to 2k.

Then you see what happens when you throw out the big number.

1 more reply

Jolter4y ago

Where do you live that 700€ a DAY is low pay? It’s, that’s MORE than 700$ a day, not less.

Consider that most parts of the world have lower cost of living than the Bay Area.

alistairSH4y ago

That’s roughly equivalent to 120,000 Euro/year once normalized for taxes (~50% for self-employed, ~30% for employees).

I have no idea what typical salaries are in the EU, but that’s on the low end of mid-career for much of the US.

3 more replies

Fiahil4y ago

600EUR is a base rate for a freelancer in France. Remember, half of it goes to taxes.

tibbetts4y ago

I prefer to be paid based on how valuable my work is to the employer, not the cost of living wherever I happen to be or even my personal financial needs.

1 more reply

throwaway220324y ago

Standard day rate for any software contractor in London at the low end four years ago.

Probably higher now.

1 more reply

benhurmarcel4y ago

To give a point of reference, an employed senior engineer in mechanical/aerospace in western Europe makes about 250-300€/day, before taxes. So 175-200€/day after taxes.

Fiahil4y ago

I second this, I know some French freelancers billing 3500 EUR per day for high-level, customer-facing, devops work.

The least you could do for "danger money" is 1200 EUR a day (and limit yourself to 4 days a week, but that's another story).

mattbee4y ago

I know! I did a sharp I take of breath at that number too!

arendtio4y ago

It depends on the country/region. In eastern Europe 700€ is okay, in western Europe it is rather cheap.

nickkell4y ago

Especially if they were contacted directly and not having to pay an additional cut to a recruiter/agency

rehash34y ago

hughrr4y ago

Spot on. Another relative point to note is that I learned pride should be ranked well below dignity.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse