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0 pointseesmith4y ago0 comments

There's a few dozen cases of in-person impersonation voter fraud PER DECADE.

Showing id to vote therefore won't improve things in any meaningful way. While the negatives are easy -- what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?

If there are no benefits, why have it at all?

By comparison, from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system, so an id that helps verify that the vaccine card is indeed for the person presenting the card. The benefits are supposed to be the reduction of the infection rate, the ability to have an alternative to having business shut down either by order, or because of consumer reluctance.

Maybe you disagree with the conclusion of that cost-benefit analysis, but it's far more substantial than the benefits of having voter id.

> Why aren't you counting any of passport books, passport cards, or REAL ID-compliant IDs (which are finally available nationwide) as national IDs

Because it's a de facto, ad hoc, and incomplete system that isn't comparable to at least some of those countries.

In some of those countries which require voter id, you can get a valid id from your local police station, or from your bank, or the tax office. While the US ones seems to be centered around a much smaller number of DMV offices.

In Belgium, everyone is supposed to have an id. In the US, something like 9% of the population doesn't have an id which would be acceptable for voting. (Eg, don't drive because of age, illness, poverty, or live in a place with good mass transit.)

As a reminder, double voting (voting in more than one district) is also a form of voter fraud. Though, oddly, it isn't always illegal! - https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/double... . Even when illegal, it is NOT solved by presenting photo id. One solution that does solve it is to set up a nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal requirement that if you move you inform the authorities. That's what some of these countries do, as part of their national ID system. This also updates your voting location.

And those are reasons why the US system isn't easily comparable to an actual national ID system, as well as helping highlight how the emphasis on in-person impersonation voter fraud over other forms of voter fraud is artificial.

(As a reminder, four people from The Villages, Sumpter Counter, FL have been arrested for suspicion of casting multiple ballots in the 2020 selection - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/resident-of-the-village... - so it's probably more common than in-person impersonation. ... but I'm having a tough time tracking down those numbers!)

In any case, these sorts of voter fraud are paltry compared to wholesale gerrymandering practices.

0 comments

4 comments · 2 top-level

josephcsible4y ago· 1 in thread

> what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?

What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed? What if you send in your mail-in ballot but it gets lost in the mail? What if you suddenly end up hospitalized on voting day?

> from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system

Lots of people get caught cheating the vaccine card system. When you have stricter security measures, you catch more of the people who break the rules.

eesmithOP4y ago

> What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed?

You do realize that's one of the reasons why the two major political parties set up call lines where you can get a ride to the polling station, right?

Because that scenario happens.

Doesn't happen to me - my polling station is within walking distance.

> Lots of people get caught

Where is the evidence that the existing non-state-issued-photo-id system is insufficiently strict?

How much stricter does the system need to be? Should we also check blood types? Should we also have genetic testing?

As I've pointed out, double voting appears more common than the types of fraud that can be detected with an id check.

Why aren't people pushing for a nation-wide registry of where each person lives, with a legal obligation to keep it up to date, would reduce more fraud?

That's what some other countries do.

erik_seaberg4y ago· 1 in thread

What stops inventing fake voters to register, if not ID?

eesmithOP4y ago

1) Registering fake people doesn't affect the vote

Someone can be registered to vote in multiple precincts. This is pretty common, as when someone moves between two states and doesn't notify the old state that they are no longer a resident for voting purposes.

This is not illegal. While voting some place where you are not legally allowed to vote is illegal.

2) "ID" is broader than "state-issued photo id"

When I registered to vote, I had to present proof that I was a resident. There was a list of options, like showing utility bill, which sufficed.

It's a lot of work to set up a fake rental agreement, fake power bill, fake whatever, and show up in-person to register. How much more does a fake id cost?

Remember, the fake id can be reused. I could travel around to 50 precincts and register my pseudonym in each one.

3) The list of registered voters is public

This gives a way to check for false registrations. And people have done these checks, when investigating in-person impersonation voter fraud.

4) You know what is more effective at stopping this sort of fraud? A nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal obligation to update it when you move.

This seems far more effective at reducing fraud than showing id. With additional benefits, like only needing to update your address once, for all government services.

Yet people focus on requiring people to show id, with its minuscule benefits and clear negatives.

Why is that?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

4 comments · 2 top-level

josephcsible4y ago· 1 in thread

> what do you do if you lost your wallet the day before voting day and have no other accepted form of id?

> from what I read, lots of people cheat the vaccine card system

Lots of people get caught cheating the vaccine card system. When you have stricter security measures, you catch more of the people who break the rules.

eesmithOP4y ago

> What if your car broke down on the way to the polling place, and by the time you got alternate transportation they were closed?

You do realize that's one of the reasons why the two major political parties set up call lines where you can get a ride to the polling station, right?

Because that scenario happens.

Doesn't happen to me - my polling station is within walking distance.

> Lots of people get caught

Where is the evidence that the existing non-state-issued-photo-id system is insufficiently strict?

How much stricter does the system need to be? Should we also check blood types? Should we also have genetic testing?

As I've pointed out, double voting appears more common than the types of fraud that can be detected with an id check.

Why aren't people pushing for a nation-wide registry of where each person lives, with a legal obligation to keep it up to date, would reduce more fraud?

That's what some other countries do.

erik_seaberg4y ago· 1 in thread

What stops inventing fake voters to register, if not ID?

eesmithOP4y ago

1) Registering fake people doesn't affect the vote

This is not illegal. While voting some place where you are not legally allowed to vote is illegal.

2) "ID" is broader than "state-issued photo id"

When I registered to vote, I had to present proof that I was a resident. There was a list of options, like showing utility bill, which sufficed.

It's a lot of work to set up a fake rental agreement, fake power bill, fake whatever, and show up in-person to register. How much more does a fake id cost?

Remember, the fake id can be reused. I could travel around to 50 precincts and register my pseudonym in each one.

3) The list of registered voters is public

This gives a way to check for false registrations. And people have done these checks, when investigating in-person impersonation voter fraud.

4) You know what is more effective at stopping this sort of fraud? A nation-wide registry of where people live, with the legal obligation to update it when you move.

This seems far more effective at reducing fraud than showing id. With additional benefits, like only needing to update your address once, for all government services.

Yet people focus on requiring people to show id, with its minuscule benefits and clear negatives.

Why is that?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse