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0 pointsvertis4y ago0 comments

No, I'm talking specifically about the first example in the article in which they describe a person that is deliberately shirking.

I'm not interested in the technical solutions to this, they're abhorrent also. With regard to results, timelines and goals all of those are incredibly hard to measure accurately in a product delivery context.

If the persons contract says "will deliver X by Y date" then by all means work the hours required and no more. What this persons contract actually says is "Will work 8hrs a day, 5 days a week, on whatever tasks are assigned. Will be paid $$$". 'Gavin' is not doing this, and he's not even just being a bit flexible. He's actively pretending to work when he's not -- that's fraud / contract violation.

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7 comments · 2 top-level

manigandham4y ago· 4 in thread

Sure, that's understandable. My perspective is that those agreements should be changed from "X hours per week" to just "accomplish tasks by their deadlines".

If no tasks are assigned then how does blocking those hours benefit anyone? And if tasks are assigned, then what does it matter beyond the deadline being met?

hermitcrab4y ago

Software engineering is a process of design/discovery. So it is often very hard to say how long something is going to take. For example a 'simple' change could unearth a bug in a third party library that ends up taking days to work around.

manigandham4y ago

I know. So what? People weren't actually productive for 40 hours in the office either, it was still based on timelines. Nothing has really changed here, other than trust actually being tested to a much larger degree. And perhaps people on both sides are finding out just how much trust there is.

vertisOP4y ago

Okay, I want the whole project by the end of the day. /s

It just doesn't work. Complexity of tasks, scope, resources all make for something that is very hard to measure.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's hard to execute.

However, the high-functioning teams I've been part of are certainly not checking if you're sitting in your seat at 9/5. They're not even worried if you take a long lunch, because they know that you can't cram every second of the day with programming work, but doing so 'in secret' is not okay.

manigandham4y ago

I agree with you on the "in secret" part, but where we differ is that I see that as a symptom of micromanagement by the company. It's not isolated to remote work either, there are plenty of people just sitting on social media at work until it's time to leave, and usually being overall less productive because of these forced hours.

Whether there's trust (on both sides) to effectively make progress is an entirely different issue. Remote work just makes it more explicit.

lotsofpulp4y ago· 1 in thread

> Gavin' is not doing this, and he's not even just being a bit flexible. He's actively pretending to work when he's not -- that's fraud / contract violation.

The fact that Guardian used this example simply causes them to lose credibility.

Any half wit can see that Gavin’s case is not one of people opting to choose work where they have more time rather than money.

This is yet another clear example of people trying to sell ads by creating “engagement” via content that causes outrage, even though it is nonsensical.

I cannot solely blame the lack of journalists’ integrity, as I cannot imagine dealing with the challenges of a business model that got nuked in the span of 10 to 20 years.

vertisOP4y ago

The rest of the article does go on to talk about more reasonable examples of people deciding not to go back to jobs, but I agree the Author would have been better served without 'Gavin' (from a credibility perspective).

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7 comments · 2 top-level

manigandham4y ago· 4 in thread

Sure, that's understandable. My perspective is that those agreements should be changed from "X hours per week" to just "accomplish tasks by their deadlines".

If no tasks are assigned then how does blocking those hours benefit anyone? And if tasks are assigned, then what does it matter beyond the deadline being met?

hermitcrab4y ago

manigandham4y ago

vertisOP4y ago

Okay, I want the whole project by the end of the day. /s

It just doesn't work. Complexity of tasks, scope, resources all make for something that is very hard to measure.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's hard to execute.

manigandham4y ago

Whether there's trust (on both sides) to effectively make progress is an entirely different issue. Remote work just makes it more explicit.

lotsofpulp4y ago· 1 in thread

> Gavin' is not doing this, and he's not even just being a bit flexible. He's actively pretending to work when he's not -- that's fraud / contract violation.

The fact that Guardian used this example simply causes them to lose credibility.

Any half wit can see that Gavin’s case is not one of people opting to choose work where they have more time rather than money.

This is yet another clear example of people trying to sell ads by creating “engagement” via content that causes outrage, even though it is nonsensical.

I cannot solely blame the lack of journalists’ integrity, as I cannot imagine dealing with the challenges of a business model that got nuked in the span of 10 to 20 years.

vertisOP4y ago

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