undefined | Better HN

0 pointsadrianN4y ago0 comments

I don't understand what you want to say. The comparison between BEVs and ICEs running on synfuels starts at the point where you want to turn electricity into motion. BEVs are more efficient by a factor of around 6. The efficiency of the wind turbine doesn't matter. You'll need six times as many of them if you want to burn synfuels instead of driving a BEV.

0 comments

rightbyte4y ago

Is that true for e.g. ethanol too? I mean sure, it is true for H2-gas made with electricity but when making ethanol you are starting with lower grade energy.

Ethanol is made from wood or grain and any losses during the harvesting etc for the end product is comparable to the wind losses around the turbine (note that it is a bad comparison, since wasting wind is kind of no cost ...) or comparable with burning wood to power a steam machine generator to power EVs.

I.e. the degenerate case is using gasoline do power a powerplant to power a EV. You would be better off just using it in an ICE car. My point is turning wood into ethanol might be a good supplement to solar and wind EVs. E.g. for wood ethanol 1J product requires 0.6J input (except the wood of course) [1].

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html https://ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/files/ethanolnetenergy.p... (table 1)

adrianNOP4y ago

Biofuels don't scale very well. You can indeed produce some "for free" from waste, but once you start planting areas solely for producing biomass to turn into biofuels, you're environmentally much better off to leave the land to nature and put up some PV or wind turbines there.

But yes, a tiny sliver of fuel demand can be satisfied from plants. You're right about that. I'm less convinced that you're better off burning the fuel in an ICE than turning it into electricity in a large power plant and running an EV. Large generators are more efficient than small ones. If you manage to do something useful with the waste heat of your power plant (e.g. use it for district heating), there is no way a small ICE can compete, even if you take into account transmission and charging losses.

rightbyte4y ago

In general I agree, but lets do some napkin math:

UK 9.34 million hectares agriculture area. [1] 6,470 l/ha ethanol in Brazil [2]

60,4 billion liter ethanol for all agricultural land in the UK. (Surely a big share of the land is not good for this usage but what ever.)

About 45 billion liter of gasoline and diesel used in UK per year.[3]

I mean, it is not totally off by orders of magnitude to be practical for a significant share of driving.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_King... [2] http://www.globalbioenergy.org/uploads/media/0907_Goldemberg... [3] https://www.racfoundation.org/data/volume-petrol-diesel-cons...

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

rightbyte4y ago

Is that true for e.g. ethanol too? I mean sure, it is true for H2-gas made with electricity but when making ethanol you are starting with lower grade energy.

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html https://ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/files/ethanolnetenergy.p... (table 1)

adrianNOP4y ago

rightbyte4y ago

In general I agree, but lets do some napkin math:

UK 9.34 million hectares agriculture area. [1] 6,470 l/ha ethanol in Brazil [2]

60,4 billion liter ethanol for all agricultural land in the UK. (Surely a big share of the land is not good for this usage but what ever.)

About 45 billion liter of gasoline and diesel used in UK per year.[3]

I mean, it is not totally off by orders of magnitude to be practical for a significant share of driving.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse