I can't be the only one who is incredibly uncomfortable about society going down this path.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986160 [1]: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italy-widens-green-pass... [2]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/San-Fra...
A. Pfizer isn’t the only vaccine option.
B. If one doesn’t take the vaccine, one’s chances of dying or being disabled for years or permanently are much higher.
C. If one doesn’t take the vaccine there is a significant chance they give the virus to someone else, killing them.
I think it’s the best option out of all non-great options to mandate vaccines in order to participate in crowded settings. It’s a matter of civic responsibility in order to partake in civic life. Sure it would be better if there was no Covid so no one would need an extra vaccine, but that world no longer exists. I don’t like the current situation either but it is what it is.
Civic responsibility isn’t brought up much these days. Liability shield for vaccine makers isn’t fair, but unvaccinated allowed to romp around spreading the virus without liability is also not fair.
It's now becoming obvious that vaccinated individuals can still be infected and can spread the infection as well. At the same time, mortality is greatly diminished. At that point, we have a vague and unspecific reduction of an already modest risk. This is insufficient to make a "civic responsibility" argument. By the same token, I could argue people should not drive cars as a matter of civic responsibility, because that carries a non-zero risk of killing a pedestrian.
What is "much higher" in a number?
> If one doesn’t take the vaccine there is a significant chance they give the virus to someone else, killing them.
"Significant" would depend on their lifestyle, would it not? Are the rural unvaccinated as "significant" as the urban unvacinnated?
> Civic responsibility isn’t brought up much these days.
Not everyone has the same idea of what civic responsibility should be, which is probably why we have to write and then enforce laws.
But for a young person with no co-morbidities, that chance is still basically 0%.
> C. If one doesn’t take the vaccine there is a significant chance they give the virus to someone else, killing them.
Even if others have taken the vaccine themselves? Either that particular risk is negligible if the vaccine works, or the vaccine doesn't work.
I feel like (B) is true, but framed in such a way to get a specific [negative] reaction.
People hurt by any COVID-19 vaccine are still entitled to compensation for that injury. Essentially the US Government provides a liability shield, wherein the damages/liability is transferred to a specific government fund, because it is considered in the greater public good to have companies make vaccines at all.
This is done via the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program[0] which is easier/cheaper to win than normal civil court and pays attorneys fees on a win. This is funded via a specific tax on all vaccine sales that is earmarked for only this purpose.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compen...
It apparently is using an odd countermeasure payment program, which is not approving any claims. https://yourworlddaily.blogspot.com/2021/07/covid-19-vaccine...
it's dystopian. this is power that won't be reliquished by either major party, just like 9/11 surveillance and security theater. unlike some of currently fashionable political impetuses, this one is worth actively resisting, to keep federal powers in check.
It's already the law, and has been for like half a century (edit: more like 80 years, actually). If you aren't vaccinated you can't attend school. You can't serve in the military. You can't work in many health care fields. We requires our citizenry to be vaccinated against major preventable diseases. We always have.
And this policy is, objectively, the second[1] biggest success story in the last few centuries of public health policy. Period.
Why did no one care about "keeping federal powers in check" in 2019? Why do you only care now? You don't think maybe that there's something polluting your priors?
[1] The invention of antibiotics gets #1.
NOT approve emergency measures (such as PREP Act) that hopes to push risk down and face much slow development for vaccines?
Emminent domain pharmaceutical supply chain?
Nationalize vaccine research efforts to "force" the creation of a new vaccine?
Stop "forcing" people to take vaccine to reduce demand to penalize private enterprise?
These are genuine questions. All vaccines makers/suppliers are poised to rake in profits, be it in capital or some other geopolitical favours.
They didn't have to limit Pfizer's or other suppliers profit margin to cover people's costs for recommended to diagnose, treat, or prevent COVID (or used in conjunction to enhance effectiveness of or mitigate risks or complications of such a diagnostic, treatment, or prevention measure); that's covered by the same law which shields the makers of those things from liability. [0]
If you are fine with C and D, you might find yourself in a company that most people would not like to be.
I mean, come on. Literally billions of people have taken this drug. What "complicationss" are you expecting that we wouldn't already have data for? It's... a vaccine. We've all had dozens of them. Did you freak out about your measles jab?
I agree with your sentiment, but it is not your coworkers who decided that now it's time to force everyone back into the office.
You should benefit from less severity of illness. Why does others status matter to you given both can spread?
Ideally, companies would create a vaccine as fast as possible(but safely, without being immune from lawsuits - especially if negligence or malice can be 'proven', why make someone immune from consequence then?) because that's always going to a profitable endeavor anyway. And people would be smart enough to get the vaccine and take precautions about spreading dangerous diseases. I don't know what the right solution is, given that we don't live in such a reasonable world
One upshot to this situation is that we are able to see the people who are willing to become hyperventilating statists with a bit more clarity.
I feel my grandkids will grow up in a world quite different from mine, where travel and experiences will be gated and limited by fear of contagious disease. That sucks and didn't need to happen.
Thought experiment for anti-vaxxers - what if there was technology that could scan the virus particles coming into your body, and the ones coming out, and identify whether you - yes YOU - were the person responsible for creating a new variant?
What if more technology could then detect that the dangerous variant that you incubated had wafted out of your nostrils and into the body of your elderly neighbor, killing her?
With your alleged focus on self responsibility, would you take your punishment if you personally were responsible for thousands of deaths?
The world isn't nearly as black and white as your 'punish the anti vaxxers' fanfic.
Actually, that's already been studied. The virus mutates far less in breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals than in infected individuals.
COVID-19 vaccines dampen genomic diversity of SARS-CoV-2: Unvaccinated patients exhibit more antigenic mutational variance:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v...
>...The societal benefit of mass vaccination may consequently go far beyond the widely reported mitigation of SARS-CoV-2 infection risk and amelioration of community transmission, to include stemming of rampant viral evolution.
I loved your hypothetical device.
My body my choice but not for experimental vaccines?
Fauci admitted yesterday infection and transmission are still possible in vaccinated. CDC renewed their indoor mask guidance because this is now evident.
So if both groups can transmit, what does vax status matter personally to you? They aren't even a large enough size to overwhelm health care in most areas that have access to the vaccine.
You can acknowledge someone made a decent point and incorporate it into your own views while still getting & encouraging vaccines - engaging in honest discussion will do more to prevent creating more anti-vaxxers than ignoring any points that you don't want to deal with. Disregarding valid points only reinforces the narrative that everyone is brainwashed by big pharma and we can't trust vaccines or whatever the narrative is - almost starting to agree with them on the first point.
So uh what about this?
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article
If it’s true the vax causes antibody dependent enhancement and that YOU, as the individual who took the experimental therapy, is producing higher viral loads would you take your punishment if you where responsible for thousands of deaths?
Also - what do we call people who are currently vaccinating their children yet refuse the experimental therapy? Clearly they’re not antivaxxers.
Definitely gave me something to think about - not about to become anti-vax or anything but not worth instantly writing off either. For me the bottom line is that the vaccine is proven to prevent a disease that's killing millions, and not getting it will literally translate to more deaths, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard opposing views - if I still disagree then it doesn't matter, and if I don't disagree then I'm glad I listened because it'd have to be something massively significant to make me change my mind. And I fully believe mocking or ignoring anyone who goes against the grain on vaccines is causing more 'real' anti-vaxxers and making the ones who are just wary about the Covid vaccine more extreme. I highly doubt anyone is being mocked into abandoning their beliefs on this.
This observation is very interesting, albeit a small sample: "Attack rate was 0/6 among persons with a previous history of COVID-19"
I got the vaccine, and am shocked that I may need to comply with another dose or “booster” shots.
I’m trying my hardest to be a team player but I’m incredibly concerned that one side would be OK with “Life-Saving-Vacinne-as-a-Service” for the low cost of x$ per month, for an unknown amount of time, and the other side is cool with ignoring it completely.
Who will ultimately be right is anyone’s guess, but with all the stories about bullshit “variants”and vaccinated people still getting fucked, I have a depleted confidence “in the science”. The same “science” that got us in here in the first place via “Gain of Function” research.
How is that bad?
When you go to a car dealer, you know he has an incentive to sell to you.
Is it bad? No, it just is.
It doesn't mean you stop listening to him. You just filter the information to get what you need to make up your own decision.
If you distrust the dealer you can go to another dealer but you can also still work with him and maybe bring your own expert, which is popular practice.
In the end you need to buy a car and you can pretty much assume ALL dealers have the same incentive to sell to you.
But no one should believe them or take what they say at face value.
It is up to us (meaning our governments) to require proper documentation for this and make our own minds based on it.
Waiting for anyone competent to confirm or correct this person re: CDC's potentially wholly flawed math: https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/defining-away-vaccin...
Pfizer created the vaccine. Who would know better than them whether a booster is necessary?
We need operation warp speed type money for funding the two good intranasal sars-cov-2 vaccine trials going on right now and to start more. Intranasal vaccination after intramuscular will recruit and specialize B and T cells to the upper respiratory mucosa and establish IgA antibodies resident for long periods there. Being intranasally vaccinated after intramuscular could actually stop the spread and end the pandemic.
edit: btw, all this has been known about aerosol spread respiratory viruses and human physiology since the 1960s.
EDIT: To be fair, it is at least likely that high-risk individuals may need boosters. Israel is already distributing them. But the idea that we will need an annual COVID shot, or that most people will need any additional shots at all, is entirely speculative. The annual shot idea is especially dubious because I think people infer this from the flu, which mutates far more rapidly than this coronavirus.
Source is MedCram, easily the best source of medical information on YouTube, specifically at 7:05: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWGh19yTXw
I’m happy that even Congress was skeptical of the claim in the last covid congressional committee discussion.
Of course, but to be fair, I don't expect any EU government to publicly acknowledge that we need a third dose when many EU countries are still struggling to get two doses to everyone, let alone a third.
Like how at the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020 the governments said that masks are not useful at protecting against the virus in order to prevent the general population from scalping and hoarding masks that were needed for medical personnel instead, and later did a 180 on that decision, making masks mandatory when mask production supplies caught up with the demand.
Such decisions are not 100% driven purely by medicine/science but also economics/politics.
I am not in any way saying the intramuscular do not protect the internal body tissues against variants. I am saying that it's important to protect against mucosa infection too to prevent spread and that requires intranasal vaccination.
* Vaccinated in January: 16% protection
* Vaccinated in February: 44% protection
* Vaccinated in March: 67% protection
* Vaccinated in April: 75% protection
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-si...
See also video from John Campbell about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNbs4LCgrcY
The protection against hospitalisation is about 88% and seems stable over time.
Can you explain where you have this knowledge from and maybe explain a little bit more?
For example I wasn't even aware that actual method of vaccination makes any difference and I don't understand how or why exactly.
I just thought we inject into muscle purely because it is convenient and maybe because it would not survive trip through digestive tract.
The CCP may do a lot of fucked up shit, but this century is just going to be completely and utterly dominated by China. I've said quite a lot of bad things about the Chinese government in the past, and may continue to do so until I die... But the U.S. is just fucked, and I very much do want to see humanity succeed and have a chance at exploring our universe to a degree thought impossible throughout our lifetimes. I only see China's method of governing getting us anywhere close to that in the long-term. Maybe they'll show mercy to the research engineers and scientists of the U.S.
As for the rest of our inhabitants... it's near impossible to care at this point.
it's not the right time to be sober
now the idiots have taken over
spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?
Mensa membership conceding
tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
the industrial revolution
has flipped the bitch on evolution
the benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
the world keeps getting dumber
insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason
darwin's rollin over in his coffin
the fittest are surviving much less often
now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
and im startin to feel a lot like charlton heston
stranded on a primate planet
apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
with generals and the armies that obeyed them
followers following fables
philosophies that enable them to rule without regard
there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions
what are we left with?
a nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
pass on traditions
how to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture
the idiots are takin over [x8]
-- Idiots Are Taking Over, NOFX, 2003> You’ve probably seen reports from Israel on low vaccine effectiveness in this wave. Is it because of Delta? Waning immunity? We think the reason is mostly that we got the denominator wrong.
https://twitter.com/dvir_a/status/1420059124700700677
> This is what we got wrong. This “wave” started from cities with high vaccination rate and couldn’t “find” unvaccined adults at risk. The denominator we need to use until mid-July is >95% vaccination rate and not the country’s average.
How much about the current vaccine can possibly be changed without major regulatory hurdles or manufacturing blockers?
Here is a random article on the topic that happens to be ovr 2 months old! So this has been going on for a while now... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/tweaked-modern...
Focusing on sales data is not helpful for vaccine and it would be better to look at doses / patients treated to measure impact.
Sales without looking at expenses are meaningless. Whatever one believes there is a huge cost to this ramp-up. Everything was expedited, expenses secondary.
The cost structure and the risk / reward discussion is required as this is anything but free market. Almost all contracts were involving governments and unusual terms. Typical expenses for drugs like marketing and trials were only to a small part paid by the company.
The rollout of the primary vaccine is still ongoing. If a booster is found to be desirable then it will require similar production capabilities as the vaccine. The sooner this is know the better and the more cost effective this capacity can be ramped up.
Without sufficient planning we may see a conflict of third world vaccines competing with first world booster for production capacity.
And yet people still sit around trying to click two brain cells together wondering why people refuse to get vaccinated, are sick of having this crap shoved down their throats, and further distrust big pharma and the medical industry at large.
Can't wait for the big pharma shills here on HN to come crawling out defending these scumbags and big industries and institutional corruption and greed.