Co-owner and I are long-time HNers. Psyched to be on the front page!
And are your images really more detailled than cadastral maps (scale 1:1000) that are nowadays recording the location of a boundary stones with a maximum deviation of ±3 to 5 cm?
We do have some color images that use satellite imagery and the creation of those images is going to be the subject of my next post. We do things like remove the natural hillshade and apply our own (due to a quirk of human perception where sun coming from below causes terrain to be perceived as inverted) and blending images from different days, etc.
Re: is this really a "map?" That's a comment we get quite a bit, especially in FB comments on our ads. These images are not traditional maps, but a map is a depiction/representation, which these are. Anyway, "map" is certainly shorter than "visual representation of a geographic area" so it's what we go with.
Re: detail. It's all about the size of the area you are printing. Our world map uses 30-meter data, but you'd need to print it on the side of a building to see the limit to the detail. So in our sizes, using 3-5cm data wouldn't improve the maps, you wouldn't be able to see any of that detail. We only make maps if that is true.
How do you manage to withhold or incorporate sketchy borders with geopolitical issues, or do you refrain from serving such locations altogether to avoid any backlash?
This is a reasonable choice for sailing charts (makes rhumb lines straight) and a reasonable choice for a zoomable web map of the world built around raster tiles (avoids the need for client-side reprojection), but is an uncommon – and in my opinion generally poor – choice for maps of the contiguous US states. What made you settle on that one? Or was it just the existing projection of the data, and you decided not to reproject it?
I think many of your maps would work a bit better (suffer substantially less distortion) if they used a region-specific projection. I have a long-term interest in map projections and would be happy to chat about possibilities if you have questions.
I don't disagree with you, I personally prefer other projections for many of our maps, but after the hundredth comment saying "you got the shape of [MY STATE] wrong, you idiots!" we realized that people think of their state (and country, in the case of CONUS) in mercator, so we decided it wasn't worth fighting that fight.
For other countries, we tend to use locale specific projections.
One projection question for you, while we're chatting: do you have a favorite Asian projection? I wanted to center the projection on center mass, which would mean changing the poles, but couldn't figure that out!
Often something appears passable on Ordinance Survey and OSM maps, but once you actually get there you find it's a bog, marsh or other type of terrain impassable with walking boots. Sometimes it's terrain that would be passable if dry, but when wet becomes too slippery (e.g. lots of very small but steep dirt mounds) or filled with streams.
Are you aware of a good solution to this?
If the answer is "no plans/infeasible", please at least consider adding Sydney (maybe in color?), I'm pretty sure it would look incredible.
I'd love to map Sydney. We're doing a city push right now but starting with US cities, as selling internationally adds some business complexity that we've been trying to avoid so far. As the business grows, we certainly do hope to have more maps outside of the US, and to be able to sell there as well!
I don't anticipate wall art being lucrative enough to commission our own scans. For areas the size of what we tend to map you need an airplane, a drone would take weeks to survey some of them.
Might be a cool experiment to try for a map. If nothing else, it sounds fun.
There is a notable lack of quality options so a potential market for you there, or if you know of a good source can you post the link here? :)
For the black and white, we pull in the relevant elevation models, merging various sources as necessary, compose the map (rotate if it helps), choose hillshade angle to highlight desired terrain, then export to photoshop.
Having been doing this for a while now we spend most of our time in Photoshop, adjusting color curves and healing irregularities (there seem to be more for LiDAR than for the standard 1/3 arc second DEM).
For our satellite + hillshade maps the process is a bit more involved. We actually remove the natural hillshade from the source image and add our own. This helps with perception of terrain (humans tend to perceive terrain as inverted if the sunlight is coming from the bottom of the image) and allows us to really play off the metallic print and get some pop. Even more photoshopping for these "maps."
Neat product!
It's a question we often get, but not a product we're looking to pursue. I think it would be prohibitively expensive to do it right and I'm not confident there's a big enough market for it.
I could be dead wrong about this, of course.
> we print our maps using the highest resolution mediums available. ... There's no sense printing at a higher resolution than humans are able to perceive. For print, 300 dpi is the gold standard.
Higher resolution media such as https://www.norsam.com/lanlreport.html are around 20000 dpi. Current semiconductor processes https://www.extremetech.com/computing/296154-how-are-process... have feature sizes around 20 nm, which is about 1.3 million dpi.
This is significantly denser than 300 dpi. It's easy to see the difference between a page printed at 300 dpi and one printed at 600 dpi, so I'd say even 300 dpi doesn't reach "higher resolution than humans are able to perceive".
How long have more detailed mediums (or media) been available? In 01949 George Harrison reported improving the control loop of a ruling engine to a precision of, in the medieval units then in use, 0.2 micro-inches (5 nm): https://www.osapublishing.org/josa/abstract.cfm?uri=josa-41-... so that he could cut grooves for a diffraction grating to that precision, which evidently amounts to a precision of 5 million dpi. This seems to have been about a factor of 70 improvement over what Michelson had achieved before 01900. But serious difficulties attended any attempts to use such diffraction ruling engines to cut irregular patterns such as these maps—as well, of course, as limits in the data bandwidth of the necessary control systems.
More detailed media still have been demonstrated; in 01989 hackers at IBM demonstrated the ability to use an STM to position atoms with atomic precision (≈0.1 nm) https://cen.acs.org/analytical-chemistry/imaging/30-years-mo... and in 02013 other hackers at IBM used this technique to make the famous stop-motion animation, "A boy and his atom" out of a few dozen carbon monoxide molecules on a metal surface: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSCX78-8-q0
0.1 nm precision is about 250 million dpi, almost a million times more detailed than Ramble's maps, or a trillion times if you count by detail per unit area. This is almost as high resolution as you're going to get with matter made out of atoms, although you can improve on it by about an order of magnitude by using, say, lithium hydride. But this resolution has been available for something like 30 years now, though you could reasonably argue that xenon atoms adsorbed to cryogenic copper were not an adequately durable medium.
It's an interesting thought to think about a scale model of Earth printed with this resolution. Ramble carefully omitted any quantitative information about the resolution of their elevation models from this post, though in this thread they say their standard DEM data is ⅓", which is 10 meters; you can download free 30-meter-resolution DEM from USGS https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/where-can-i-get-global-elevation-d... and Airbus offers to sell you 12-meter resolution data https://www.intelligence-airbusds.com/imagery/reference-laye.... Much higher-resolution global data almost surely exists but is not available to the public—interferometric microwave SAR from satellites can get down to centimeter resolution https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/backgrounders/what-is-sar but is a strategic advantage for change detection (surveillance) and navigation of things like cruise missiles (when GPS is unavailable).
But suppose you have a 1-cm-resolution DEM of Earth, 5.1 exapixels of data (probably about 5 exabytes, 5.1 million terabytes, about US$100 million of disk), as surely the national spying agency of every spacefaring power does. If you were to print a relief map from it at single-atom resolution—0.1 nm—how big would that map be?
Well, the radius of the Earth is 6371 km (the pole-equator distance was supposed to be 10'000 km, which would have made the radius 6366 km, but Humboldt's expedition lamentably made an 0.08% error in their measurements that we must now live with), and scaling that down by the ratio 1cm:0.1nm, or 100 million to 1, we end up with 63.71 mm radius, or 127.4 mm diameter. The scale model of the Grand Canyon would be 19 microns deep and 290 microns wide. The model earth, accurate to the centimeter, would easily fit in your hand, although hopefully it would be equipped with handles so a stray sand grain on your finger wouldn't dig a kilometer-deep trench across Iowa.
You might very reasonably protest that a map that can only be read with an electron microscope, because nearly all its detail is smaller than the wavelength of light, is less than useful. So if we limit the map's resolution to what you can see with visible light—say, 400 nm—its scale is 4000 times larger. Your scale model of Earth would then be 510 meters across, the size of a small town. But you would still need a very fine optical microscope to see most of its detail.
If you printed out sheets of this map on A3 paper, it would take 6.5 million pages, mostly ocean. Each sheet would cover 10.5 km × 7.4 km.
There's still a lot of room at the bottom!
This depends entirely on viewer and viewing distance. 300 dpi should be roughly at the limit of what someone with 20/20 vision can distinguish from a distance of about a foot.
If you get a teenager with 20/15 vision and put them as close as their eyes can focus (say, 4 or 5 inches), they’ll be able to see a clear difference between these. But if you take an average person and look at the two images from a distance of a few feet, it will be all but impossible to tell the difference.
In https://dercuano.github.io/notes/bokeh-pointcasting.html I estimated the visual acuity in my good eye experimentally at about 200 μradians, which I guess means I have about 20/15 vision. Too bad I can't focus any closer than a "foot" now that I'm old. I can still see the jaggies on 300-dpi laser prints, though.
But if you have 20/20 vision and can focus at 150 mm (as most of us can before we get old, or as we can with reading glasses, or just if we're a bit nearsighted, or if we're reading in bright sunlight so the bokeh is a bit smaller), then you can distinguish lines separated by a single white pixel at 600 dpi. So in theory you should be able to print out http://canonical.org/~kragen/bible-columns.png on a regular 600-dpi laser printer and then read it with a magnifying glass—the whole KJV Bible on three pages. Two sheets of paper, if you print double-sided. (So far, I haven't managed to get it to print that clearly, but I think that's probably a matter of printer drivers and pixel grid alignment to avoid resampling.)
Now, if you have 20/15 vision, at one foot you should have about 400 dpi of resolution. Or, at the 4 inches you suggest, 1200 dpi! (1145, actually.) You should be able to get the KJV Bible onto one side of one sheet of A4 paper!
Anyway, I think there's a big gap between the ambition described by "The World's Most Detailed Print Maps" and "we print our maps using the highest resolution mediums available" and even "no sense printing at a higher resolution than humans are able to perceive", and the standard you describe, "if you take an average person and look at the two images from a distance of a few feet, it will be all but impossible to tell the difference." I mean there are a lot of things that humans are able to perceive, but not from a distance of a few feet: the flavor of pizza, the scent of most kinds of roses, the difference between good wine and bad wine, the individual scales on a butterfly's wing, bad breath, the subtle impatience in an outwardly tender caress—and, perhaps, even the meaning of most printed text.
And there are many, many things that humans are able to perceive, but average people are not: the meaning of an English sentence (since 83% of people do not speak English), the difference between love and lust, the historical context of colonialism, the particular version of AutoCAD used to design a building, the form of engine malfunction represented by a particular rattling noise, the shoddiness of Dan Brown's writing, the self-serving dishonesty of those who promote the "Law of Attraction," the abusive nature of proprietary-software licenses, global warming, the difference between a Bristol accent and a London accent.
So I think you are redefining the stated goals of this work downward to a really remarkable extent. What an average person can easily see from a distance of a few feet is very far from the limits of human perception.
Also, Ramble Maps is a business. We have material costs, shipping costs, advertising costs, rent. We accept returns (and pay for return shipping), spend time making maps, answering emails, and writing posts like this.
And finally, can you let me know where you can get those materials? Those prices are far better than what we pay!
If anyone is a fan of adding depth to old maps, check out https://scottreinhard.com/Mapping-and-Visualization. Not sure if he's selling them any longer, but they're beautifully rendered.
I wonder if it’s possible to use something like photolithography to create incredibly high dpi “3D prints” for elevation maps like this? Maybe some parts would look flat, but you would be able to discern elevation based on touch?
If you're ever looking to print some photos to hang on your wall, it's definitely worth considering metallic paper + face mounted acrylic glass. It has unrivaled "pop" among print options.
I don't know much about photolithography, but a quick search is intriguing. I'll have to put it on my to-learn-about list.
The product looks awesome though. I’d probably buy one if I lived in the US.
Fixed humans. Will review the rest! Anything in particular on the home page you don't like?
I've never thought of electron micrographs but just did a google image search and wow, I have to agree!
Exactly where it is coming from depends on the terrain, we'll move it around within a 45 degree window around 337.5 and see what makes the particular landscape look best.
But a higher standard would be if at any distance, they cannot perceive a difference between 300 and 400dpi.
Maybe the result would be the same, maybe that was even tested, but when I hear something is the best of the best I am going to look for even a tiny window of improvement!
