MK and I met after we both had found the benefits of a traditional meditation practice, but only after much difficulty getting started because it took over 30 days to feel the benefits and it can often feel isolating and like nothing is “working.” At the time, MK was a top SoulCycle instructor. She is a master at creating community and motivating people to be their best through a perfect balance of humor, approachability, vulnerability, and acceptance. I was an avid SoulCycle rider and we bonded over our shared love for meditation and separately, our love for the instantly gratifying and social experience that SoulCycle had created. She and I decided that if we could create an experience for the mind that mirrored what SoulCycle had done for the body, we could help millions of people just like us.
So, we spent months, combining different mindfulness techniques into a new method, testing out various versions on our living floors. We tried starting the class with a 3 minute traditional meditation before moving into the breathing pattern - no dice - we had promised people non-traditional meditation so when we hit them with exactly traditional meditation right at the start, it turned people off. Next we tried getting into the breathing pattern right off the bat -- still no dice. But we kept at it, and 16 major iterations later, we landed on what is now our Chorus class.
Traditional meditation can be life-changing for those who stick with it, but the unfortunate truth is that for most people it’s hard to sustain the discipline to stick with it long enough to unlock the ah-ha moment. Once you cross that threshold you feel its power, but with Chorus we are trying to help people who struggle with that onboarding phase cross the threshold more easily. We've found that one of the main barriers many people run into with traditional meditation is that they're doing it alone, and they often feel like nothing is happening. So, we made Chorus 1) social, with warm, personable teachers and fellow class attendees, 2) fun, with new and popular music, and 3) designed to give motivating results in the first session and on-going. For example, the breathing pattern we use brings more oxygen into the body than normal inhales and exhales, which causes a tingling sensation, giving users a quick and satisfying feeling even in the first session. You can think of the tingles like endorphins in exercise - they feel good and tell you that something is working - so you are satisfied and want to come back for more. Everything in Chorus is designed to motivate you to keep going.
Our members pay $40-a-month to have access to live and pre-recorded classes set to the beat of popular music like Beyonce, Odesza, Bon Iver, etc, that help them start their day with a positive mindset or unwind at night before bed. If you want to give it a try, we just launched a new class specifically designed to help you sleep — https://chorusmeditation.com/#book-a-class
One of our users, a mother of young twins, shared: “my first experience unlocked something in me. Something visceral, and I thought - ‘this is so worth exploring.’” This is exactly the kind of reaction we’re going for.
I want to emphasize that we’re in no way trying to replace traditional meditation. We, ourselves, are reverent students of traditional practices. And we're well aware that we don't have anything to teach the millennia-old traditions of India and China. What we are trying to do is bridge the gap for people who find traditional techniques challenging so that they can avoid the discouraging feeling of “I’m doing this wrong” and empower them to develop their own mindfulness practice.
Another thing we do to support our users in the early stages of practice is provide a community in which they can share their experiences and get encouragement to keep going. This is one of the more satisfying aspects for us, because people report their positive experiences as well as their challenges. We hear from users who report feeling more calm and focused, or sleeping better, all the way up to "Chorus has truly transformed my life...I didn’t think I would ever have a relationship with my mom again, and now because of Chorus, I do.”
We are building Chorus for our collective community, so I’d really love to hear this community’s feedback. We'd love to hear from everybody, whether you're a complete meditation skeptic, someone who's found meditation challenging, or a seasoned meditator who has achieved total equanimity! We're eager to hear your experiences and thoughts and feedback!
Over to you, HN!
In my opinion the result of this type of approach is a diluted, incomplete practice, focused mainly on symptom relief, which tends to forget the heart of the matter.
There is nothing wrong with taking these practices as inspiration to help people, and I think your approach is a good way to bring them to know more about these practices.
But perhaps you should bring a little more of the philosophical/theological side to this modern take on meditation, something like what Stephen Batchelor is doing with his Secular Buddhism.
The best we get is what tae bo is to professional boxing.
Source: conversations and experiences with someone who had the fortune to study both in New Delhi yoga university and with a Yoga lineage in the Himalayas.
The official university still didn’t touch, or know, of essential elements of the practices. Whether intentionally hidden or forgotten, they are completely unheard of in the West.
In the west we have Yoga laptops for heavens sake.
This is complete cultural appropriation and you should stop perpetuating it while making money off of it.
Yours is not the first crew to do this. It's got a bit of a long history here in the SF Bay Area, going back at least to Leonard Orr in the 1970's, who believed he was on the trail of physical immortality.[1]
I was looking up Grof's "Holotropic" breathing, but WP now just redirects to "Breathwork" which actually lists the big names, including W. Reich and Orr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathwork
(It's written by skeptics with the usual obvious BS: E.g.
> Derived from various spiritual and pre-scientific traditions from around the world, it was pioneered in the West by Wilhelm Reich.
Reich didn't derive anything from any "spiritual and pre-scientific traditions". He was a scientific genius, one of Freud's contemporaries before he was driven out of Vienna for saying folks would be less uptight if they had healthier sex lives. His discoveries around what he called "Character Armor" have yet to be appreciated in mainstream psychology. He is one of the few Western researchers to independently discover "Chi" energy. He did some amazing research and then went insane, died in prison, and had his papers burned by the FDA. True story.)
Anyway, y'all are just "selling air": teaching folks to hyperventilate, to pop music, in their own homes, where they are on their own if any adverse effect occur, and then you use that as a convincer to get people to give you $40/mo.
I have to side with the skeptics here: you don't know what you're doing, the breathing techniques you appear to be teaching can have adverse side effects, you're misrepresenting it as some sort of intro meditation for beginners (the very people who need MORE individual time and attention from their Guru) which it is not, and you are putting yourselves in the position of Guru without taking on the responsibility or having the qualifications (by your own admission.)
This is all bad, and you should probably stop.
[1] He used to say, "Physical immortality: the only cause you can't die for!" and "I made my first million dollars selling air." For more about Orr and his "Rebirthing" breathwork see: => https://ibfbreathwork.org/7715/ "Tribute to Leonard Orr"
We also use other breath techniques like boxed breathing and breathing with longer exhales than inhales which calms the nervous system: https://www.healthline.com/health/box-breathing#tips-for-beg... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...
You are completely right that we must take incredibly seriously the space we are holding for our community when we engage in this practice. All of our teachers are trained by professionals, including trauma informed training from professionals at UCSF. We always make sure the customer is empowered to stay in a zone that feels comfortable to them. Additionally, when we breathe in this way we are doing similar things to the body as we do with cardio exercise, so it's generally totally safe and the physical sensations of the breath subside when you stop the pattern. Of course we are not doctors so we recommend, in the same way that any gym or physical exercise solution does, that you should consult your doctor before engaging in cardio vascular work.
Second, I'm gratified to learn that you're not teaching the more potent forms of breathwork. That makes me walk back a lot of what I said above. I apologize for jumping to that conclusion from a superficial reading of your page and what you said above.
> All of our teachers are trained by professionals, including trauma informed training from professionals at UCSF. We always make sure the customer is empowered to stay in a zone that feels comfortable to them. Additionally, when we breathe in this way we are doing similar things to the body as we do with cardio exercise, so it's generally totally safe and the physical sensations of the breath subside when you stop the pattern. Of course we are not doctors so we recommend, in the same way that any gym or physical exercise solution does, that you should consult your doctor before engaging in cardio vascular work.
Ah, well, shut my mouth. :) As you say, that doesn't sound any worse than e.g. those indoor climbing gyms, eh? (Why not put the grippy things on a big cylinder suspended over a ball pit and slowly rotate the cylinder? Much safer and more fun than climbing up and down, no?)
Still, there's a little bit of the "blind leading the blind" if you're teaching homemade techniques without a depth of experience (as in decades of experience.) There are good reasons why Guru and Lineage figure large in the structure of traditional methods of transmission, beyond just the economic obligations. (One invisible problem in the West is that we have almost no modern tradition to fit this sort of knowledge into our society. I.e. Venkataraman Iyer would have died homeless on the street somewhere if he had lived in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi )
To put it in concrete terms, are you going to know what to do if one of your students has some sort of abreaction[1] with your methods, as mild as they may be? I've seen a lot of weird stuff go down out there in the wild, among the bush psychologists and street shamans, and while it mostly turns out okay, I've had friends become shattered shambling homeless madmen.
Good luck and God bless. :)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abreaction
> a psychoanalytical term for reliving an experience to purge it of its emotional excesses—a type of catharsis. Sometimes it is a method of becoming conscious of repressed traumatic events.
I don't see the point in accusing the team of "selling air". Would you accuse a trainer of "selling movement" or a coach of "selling words"??
Breath is a fundamental component of the human experience that affects our mood, health, and everyday experience. Learning how your breath affects your experience is valuable just like any other physical activity (yoga, running, meditation, exercise). There is also a spiritual component to introspective practices like meditation which can be quite valuable. For some people, it's definitely worth paying for these things.
If you're only comfortable with gurus doing this work, what would a guru need to be "qualified"?
To be qualified as a Guru you should know how not to break your students, and how to fix them if they break or come to you already broken, to the extent that that is possible.
To teach people how to ignite themselves without a fire extinguisher handy is not wise?
Yeah, I think I overreacted. I've had friends who lost their minds doing weird things in irresponsible ways and I think I pattern-matched badly here.
> it's a category error to conflate Wilhelm Reich, Leonard Orr, and Stan Grof.
I agree! I hope it didn't sound like I was doing that. I think the Wikipedia article does that, and it's ...um, not as accurate as it should be, to say it nicely.
FWIW, it seems to me that Reich must have injured himself somehow when he tried using his "orgone" device on a radioactive sample. Before that he was a scientific genius, and then, almost from that moment, he seems to descend into madness, fighting with UFOs and the FDA.
Put your expenses in a public spreadsheet, accept donations.
I tell you if you do that you will achieve 1000x positive effect and you'll become immeasurably wealthy for the rest of your life as well, natch.
The teachers may also have other offerings that are more paid upfront that are more 1-on-1 or small groups.
"What we are trying to do is bridge the gap for people who find traditional techniques challenging so that they can avoid the discouraging feeling of “I’m doing this wrong” and empower them to develop their own mindfulness practice. Another thing we do to support our users in the early stages of practice is provide a community in which they can share their experiences and get encouragement to keep going."
Part of me has a visceral pushback, but I understand this may work for some people. I just hope, out of respect, there's a pointer to the traditional techniques for those realizing that this practice may not be the right fit for some. The worst thing you can do is dissuade people or disrespect neighboring teachers (see https://seattleyoganews.com/northwest-yoga-conference-incide... ).
Meditation sounds like a post-religion religion, but at least there was the promise of silence. Now we have loud meditation?
To me this video is quite terrifying; it reminds me of some kind of megachurch experience, a place where a guy like Kenneth Copeland wouldn't look out of place (see the intensity firing up around 21:22 and then dropping off at 23:24).
Sounds like a great proposition though - anything that bring more people into the meditation fold sounds like a positive to me.
I wish you the best of luck!
Also, I would maybe drop the references to meditation. It seems more like breathwork in the tradition of a Stanislav Grof, which is totally fine and valid, just maybe misleading for newcomers expecting meditation.
Recently I have realised I have many Attention Deficit Disorder traits, and likely have ADD.
What's your experience of meditation and people with ADD? How does the practice change for them, and what works best?
Since starting to meditate myself I have become way better at reading speed, comprehension and overall focus has improved dramatically.
Here is a study that talks about it: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/108705470730850...
If you notice that you're having an internal conversation then you have awareness and you should rejoice in that! I think too often people assume that meditation needs to be a completely focused empty mind at all times. Mingyur Rinpoche does a great job explaining it (and is a great teacher, would highly recommend his courses): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thcEuMDWxoI
In some sessions, I found myself weeping, processing grief I didn't realize I had been holding onto. In others, I had intense visual experiences like sinking to the bottom of the ocean or dissolving into the earth, which helped me to let go of things outside of my control. In another session, I connected with a deep desire to have another child, and decided it was time to do that. I would describe my chorus experiences as relaxing, fun, important, profound, and psychedelic.
I'm one of those people who found meditation frustrating and "not really doing anything", but had a completely different experience with Chorus. I was also really skeptical when a friend first described Chorus to me. I thought "Isn't listening to loud music the opposite of meditation!? That sounds cheesy." I was quickly won over. I encourage anyone with even a slight interest to try it. If you really lean into the experience and let go of your expectations, you might be very surprised at what can happen!
I have recruited several folks to Chorus this year and they are finding it quite helpful! My husband in particular has had some really intense (in a good way) experiences. A friend just reached out to me today to tell me how much he is enjoying it, and mentioned he noticed your launch on HN, so I wanted to come put in a good word :)
Interesting pattern, the people I've referred who have gotten the most out of chorus are/were startup CEOs. I wonder if this format is particularly good for people who are comfortable in intense environments? Or maybe those who have already learned the benefits of an introspection practice? I know it helps me show up better as a leader.
I'm speaking strictly from a secular point of view now, what you are teaching has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is a practice with a clear line of progression. We have markers and waypoints for every stage of a meditator's journey to seeing the conditioned nature of reality.
If you want to continue with your product, I strongly urge you to call it something else because they will be confused that what they are practicing has anything to do with a thousands of years old series of techniques that are well-defined and established and predicated on four simple truths: the observance of suffering, its origin, its extinction and the path leading to its extinction.
I want to add for the purpose of disclosure: I am no longer a meditation teacher and have backslid greatly in my practice. My historical comments should not be taken as the examples of right ethics which would be expected of a highly attained practitioner. Intellectually, however, I feel I must condemn a product that risks harm by association to a beautiful, clear system which can be walked by anyone to achieve a calm, kind mind.
If people are curious about meditation, Headspace is a solid intro to these techniques started by a former monk with decades of experience.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81-%C3%B1%C4%81%...
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence#:~:....
There are many different ways to meditate, from different traditions, with different objectives, secular and non-secular, with no/anecdotal/scientific evidence etc., e.g.
* Mindfulness meditation
* Loving kindness meditation
* Transcendental meditation
* Visualisation
* Chanting and praying
* Progressive muscle relaxation
* ...
It feels to me you are defending one particular school of thought (that has given you benefits) rather than meditation?
Many of the techniques you highlight descend from the same lineage: mindfulness (vipassana), lovingkindness (metta), and nondirective (of which transcendental owes itself to, Zen was its predecessor). It should be no surprise that the scientific evidence we have available to us has verified the efficacy of mindfulness, has verified the efficacy of lovingkindness. [2]
A meditator's journey may take them through a host of techniques. What's important is they are backed by ethics and deep understanding of what practitioners thousands of years before us were writing. That is a foundation to build on. The Buddha and the teachers who followed built on this foundation. The Chinese synthesists, Mahayana, Vajrayana, all of them established themselves in the foundation of what came before.
The foundation is a tripod. It is not "just" concentration or "just" ethics or "just" awareness, it is these three working together. [3] If you kick one leg out, the whole thing comes crashing down.
Let me also clarify what I mean by dangerous: meditation must be grounded in ethical action, in right understanding of the techniques because one can very easily come to assume a new set of delusions to replace their old, which leads to poor outcomes for themselves and others. People have been dragged from retreats screaming because of latent mental illness or they perceived something they were unprepared for. I myself have observed the total dissolution of self right before my eyes. I was not afraid, I was ready. I owe that fearlessness and confidence to my teachers who selflessly taught with no expectation of monetary gain.
Money itself corrupts the relationship between teacher and student. And we have decades of abuses from self-proclaimed gurus to back this.
Those who declare themselves authorities to remove ethics or wisdom from a system of mind-training because it smacks of religious devotion need to seriously examine their motivations for doing so.
The dhamma is free for anyone to pick up. I could recommend a host of teachers who will give days and years of their life to any prospective students who wish to take up the path, completely for free. And then when you turn your mind to gratitude, to lovingkindness, it will be easy to find a person for which to be gracious to. I owe my life to these people.
I'd like to conclude by really pushing the creators of this project to reconsider associating Chorus with meditation. Even the Wim Hof Method is just the Wim Hof Method.
Chorus on its own is a great name.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da
[2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m_tiYlDIyNpp6WGUgKd5...
Why? I just want to try the shoes on before buying.
and for the video on docsend, its not a paid wall - just put in your email and you can view: https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v
The docsend video requires an email address, and rejects "a@example.com" as fake, so it wants a real email address, which implies to me you want to collect it for marketing / lead generation purposes.
Is there any reason you can't put a one or two minute "example" meditation video on YouTube?
and for a demo of the class - here is this one as well: https://docsend.com/view/hxra3rnfevsytg4v
I think it was a good fit with the move to remote world, having a community of people to mediate with - think they have grown a ton. I have friends who like that better. Personally I find myself a little lazy to show up - giving myself some space for that and look forward to in person classes again.
Also love these hackernews comments that seem negative/not understanding.. reminds me of the dropbox snark! Strong signal ladies, keep it up!
We are by no means trying to replace traditional meditation and Chorus certainly isnt for everyone. But for people it IS for we are frickin thrilled to help them unlock a mindfulness practice of their own!
So great to hear about your experience with us back when we were in person. We too hope that some day we can have both a digital and in-person presence because human connection is so important.
I can also relate to the challenge of prioritizing time to do it when you dont have somewhere physical to "GO". That ease of use is exactly what we are working on in our new app, so would love to see if we can help you with our new experience. But totally get if you are just an in-person person :) And we send you big Chorus hugs and thanks again for the support!!
>>> WHAT TO BRING >>>
Headphones or external speakers for the music
A cozy blanket!
A journal for some special reflections (only needed for the "Chorus" class - not for "Chorus 30" or "Sleep")
Other options > Eye mask or something to cover your eyes > A pillow under your knees to support your lower back
>>> HOW TO SET UP >>>
Find a quiet, soft place to LIE DOWN, where you won’t be disturbed (bed, couch, or yoga mat are great)
Set up where WiFi is strongest (it helps the audio not cut out during class)
Settle in a few minutes ahead of time so you can make sure your space is comfy and ready for class
>>> Here are a couple videos on what to expect for your first class too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyuh0cQjKSU&t=2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUJhfjxvNDE&feature=youtu.be
This is a bit of a party trick that I used in my very brief career as a, well, guru, I think I called myself a life coach cuz that was the hip thing back then. I just went through the basics of deep breathing, fill your belly then your lungs, then use a pattern like box or triangle. Because I was directing them they held the pattern way longer than they would have naturally.
The result is you're effectively hyperventilating. Your body's just not used to that much oxygen. You can get used to it and it's pretty cool because all that oxygen literally energizes you. But after that first time I pulled back on the time spent doing super-deep breathing because it gets in the way of getting into alpha.
