undefined | Better HN

0 pointssmitty1e5y ago0 comments

> Creating a new language sounds ideal

I seriously cannot think of anything I could do to exceed Python.

Does it do everything? No. But name a tool with significantly greater overall reach. Some compete, but seriously. . .

0 comments

23 comments · 7 top-level

pansa25y ago· 10 in thread

Python is great if you’re writing code to run on your own computer(s). But it’s terrible for packaging into executables to give to others (compared to Go), for embedding in applications (compared to Lua) and for running in the browser (compared to JS).

There’s no reason a new scripting language couldn’t excel in all three of those areas. But AFAIK none currently come close.

andi9995y ago

And small things. Like your function wants to know if a parameter was not used when calling it. The ideom if par=None breaks if called with arrays. Ending scripts with a command early would also be great (for interactive programming)

Also what is wrong in having a switch statement? (I`d like one with range cases 1<x<10..)

Accesing dicts with a struct syntax.

'Inline' C functions.

JIT, especially for loop acceleration.

LostJourneyman5y ago

Quick note, the more pythonic way of checking par in this case would be just to:

  if par:
    do_stuff()

Python does some really cool, if slightly unintuitive, checks for "truthiness" where 0, [], {}, false, '' and None (could be other cases too, brain's a little foggy today) all evaluate as false. This controls for:

  if par = None:
    do_stuff()

not catching empty lists, empty dicts, etc.

1 more reply

vasachi5y ago

I believe the idiom to check, if a parameter wasn’t set is to use an object() instance as default value.

  _notset = object()

  def foo(x=_notset):
      if x is _notset:
          print("foo was called as foo()")

1 more reply

maxs5y ago

I don't understand what you mean by arrays.

    if par is None: ...

As for accessing dicts with a struct syntax, I prefer keeping dicts and objects different things (unlike Javascript).

And for JIT, there's numba!

Agreed on the switch statement...

Wowfunhappy5y ago

Pyinstaller seems to work pretty damn well for packaging standalone binaries. Or at least it does on macOS, I haven't tried it on other platforms.

MikeTheGreat5y ago

I'm using PyInstaller on Win10. It works well, although the single-file binaries get slower as I add more libraries because it starts by extracting that single file out into a temporary directory and then running it.

It's a personal project so I like to experiment, but it's also a CLI program that accepts command line arguments, runs, and then exits, so a 3-5 second delay _each_time_ it runs is pretty painful.

Luckily for me there's a 'single directory' option, which puts everything (uncompressed) into a folder. Snappy start because there's no decompression step, and while I like the idea of a single file .exe it turns out I don't really need that (I'm not copying the program from computer to computer).

So - thumbs up for PyInstaller!

sireat5y ago

Pyinstaller is nice for packaging projects with smaller libraries. Hello world is about 7MB.

Try including pandas with a few other popular libraries.

Suddenly you have 500MB blobs. Not very practical for passing around multiple projects.

I suppose that is not worse than Electron apps...

1 more reply

vram225y ago

I have tried PyInstaller some, on Windows, for both CLI and GUI (wxPython) apps, and what I tried worked fine, including single-file EXEs.

CraigJPerry5y ago

>> for embedding in applications

I did this before and found it really easy to integrate. The provided C API surface is really easy to integrate with. It was literally just a case of detailing my types, calling the Py runtime and then querying the results/side effects.

Having never done something like that before, i was full of trepidation - i was amazed at how easy it was.

pjmlp5y ago

Packing Python into single packages has been a thing since 2002.

jtdev5y ago· 3 in thread

Agreed. I’ve always felt that the following sums up why Python is my preferred language:

Python is the second-best language for everything.

monsieurbanana5y ago

With the big, big, notable exception: targeting the browser.

folkrav5y ago

To be perfectly fair, unless you count WASM or other compiles-to-JS-but-not-quite-native langs (which, outside TS, are pretty niche), this is the case with literally every language except JS.

1 more reply

Izkata5y ago

Possibly not for long: https://www.brython.info/

1 more reply

peterkelly5y ago· 3 in thread

> I seriously cannot think of anything I could do to exceed Python.

Just off the top of my head:

- Pattern matching

- Multi-line lambdas

- Proper variable capture in lambdas and inner functions (as was fixed with the 'let' keyword vs 'var' in recent versions of JavaScript)

- Support for cyclic imports (a bad pattern in general but necessary in some cases)

- A well-defined C API for extensions that doesn't get them too entangled in the internals of CPython. This would make it possible for other implementations to reach the level of library support that CPython enjoys.

kazinator5y ago

Pattern matching is in PEP 635, created Sep 12, 2020.

Multi-line lambdas can be sort of obtained in Python by defining a progn function:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19933223

maxs5y ago

I would say proper variable scoping in general. It would be awesome to have let variables in python!

zo15y ago

Variables are scoped just fine from my point of view. What do you mean by proper?

1 more reply

jshen5y ago

There are a lot of things python could do to be much better. Two examples, 1) dependency management in python is a train wreck compared to most modern languages. 2) the way package paths are done for imports is far more confusing than it should be.

didibus5y ago

I'm not sure what you mean by reach? But Clojure given one definition has more reach. It can make use of Python libraries, Java libraries, C# libraries, JavaScript libraries, Erlang libraries, C libraries, and can run on desktop, mobile and browser.

javajosh5y ago

JavaScript has greater reach. ES6 in a modern browser with native modules, and if you avoid classes and this, focus on object literals and pure functions, and pick a decent utility library, its a very good environment with max reach.

jimbob455y ago

Better main method calling, better chaining, multiple constructors, and better reflection.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

23 comments · 7 top-level

pansa25y ago· 10 in thread

There’s no reason a new scripting language couldn’t excel in all three of those areas. But AFAIK none currently come close.

andi9995y ago

Also what is wrong in having a switch statement? (I`d like one with range cases 1<x<10..)

Accesing dicts with a struct syntax.

'Inline' C functions.

JIT, especially for loop acceleration.

LostJourneyman5y ago

Quick note, the more pythonic way of checking par in this case would be just to:

  if par:
    do_stuff()

  if par = None:
    do_stuff()

not catching empty lists, empty dicts, etc.

1 more reply

vasachi5y ago

I believe the idiom to check, if a parameter wasn’t set is to use an object() instance as default value.

  _notset = object()

  def foo(x=_notset):
      if x is _notset:
          print("foo was called as foo()")

1 more reply

maxs5y ago

I don't understand what you mean by arrays.

    if par is None: ...

As for accessing dicts with a struct syntax, I prefer keeping dicts and objects different things (unlike Javascript).

And for JIT, there's numba!

Agreed on the switch statement...

Wowfunhappy5y ago

Pyinstaller seems to work pretty damn well for packaging standalone binaries. Or at least it does on macOS, I haven't tried it on other platforms.

MikeTheGreat5y ago

It's a personal project so I like to experiment, but it's also a CLI program that accepts command line arguments, runs, and then exits, so a 3-5 second delay _each_time_ it runs is pretty painful.

So - thumbs up for PyInstaller!

sireat5y ago

Pyinstaller is nice for packaging projects with smaller libraries. Hello world is about 7MB.

Try including pandas with a few other popular libraries.

Suddenly you have 500MB blobs. Not very practical for passing around multiple projects.

I suppose that is not worse than Electron apps...

1 more reply

vram225y ago

I have tried PyInstaller some, on Windows, for both CLI and GUI (wxPython) apps, and what I tried worked fine, including single-file EXEs.

CraigJPerry5y ago

>> for embedding in applications

Having never done something like that before, i was full of trepidation - i was amazed at how easy it was.

pjmlp5y ago

Packing Python into single packages has been a thing since 2002.

jtdev5y ago· 3 in thread

Agreed. I’ve always felt that the following sums up why Python is my preferred language:

Python is the second-best language for everything.

monsieurbanana5y ago

With the big, big, notable exception: targeting the browser.

folkrav5y ago

To be perfectly fair, unless you count WASM or other compiles-to-JS-but-not-quite-native langs (which, outside TS, are pretty niche), this is the case with literally every language except JS.

1 more reply

Izkata5y ago

Possibly not for long: https://www.brython.info/

1 more reply

peterkelly5y ago· 3 in thread

> I seriously cannot think of anything I could do to exceed Python.

Just off the top of my head:

- Pattern matching

- Multi-line lambdas

- Proper variable capture in lambdas and inner functions (as was fixed with the 'let' keyword vs 'var' in recent versions of JavaScript)

- Support for cyclic imports (a bad pattern in general but necessary in some cases)

kazinator5y ago

Pattern matching is in PEP 635, created Sep 12, 2020.

Multi-line lambdas can be sort of obtained in Python by defining a progn function:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19933223

maxs5y ago

I would say proper variable scoping in general. It would be awesome to have let variables in python!

zo15y ago

Variables are scoped just fine from my point of view. What do you mean by proper?

1 more reply

jshen5y ago

didibus5y ago

javajosh5y ago

jimbob455y ago

Better main method calling, better chaining, multiple constructors, and better reflection.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse