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0 pointsretrac5y ago0 comments

Python is great glue. But it's huge. Packed full of features. Has all sorts of syntactic sugar. It's the C++ of scripting languages. Great for an intermediate programmer who just needs to slap something together. But at the very beginning, these can actually be drawbacks because there's so very much to learn.

I would suggest something small, that you can realistically fit all in your head. I honestly believe Pascal is still an excellent choice. For something a little less low-level and more scripting-like, Lua seems nice. The JavaScript ecosystem is awkward, and there are things to criticize (no integers?) but by itself, it's a nice small language as well.

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12 comments · 4 top-level

echelon5y ago· 5 in thread

> It's the C++ of scripting languages.

This is such a fantastic analogy. Thank you!

C++ tries to be all the paradigms, even if they're bolted on. Python is similar in that regard. Complex OO, functional, exceptions, decorators, lots of container types, iterators, generators, operator overloads... The only thing it's missing is a macro language.

Python's "batteries included" standard library stance takes it even beyond the C++ analogy in terms of sheer volume of out of the box capabilities you get.

BerislavLopac5y ago

Python has a built-in macro language. It's called Python.

prionassembly5y ago

Checkout Hylang, a Lispish language that compiles to Python, or maybe a Lispish syntax for Python? You can write pieces of code in .hy files and import them from .py files and vice-versa.

And then you have macros like in macros that traverse and transform code.

pansa25y ago

But Python still has a reputation of being a simple language for beginners. I’m not sure how that reputation endures. Is it just because of the lightweight syntax?

pjmlp5y ago

Because Python is easier to start programming with, BASIC like, but a large majority fails to actually read the official documentation.

If they would do that, then they would realize Python is as powerful as Common Lisp, Ada, C++,.... with similar doc size in pages.

type05y ago

It is deceptively simple. The Python learning curve looks like a snake - https://fabienmaussion.info/acinn_python_workshop/figures/xk...

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sideshowb5y ago· 2 in thread

Why the requirement for a beginner to know their entire language? Writing code is fundamentally about making changes to a system with incomplete knowledge - abstraction, encapsulation etc. Working in the presence of unknown language features is another facet of the same thing.

retracOP5y ago

So you don't get bogged down in details. There are many programmers out there who can glue libraries together but have no understanding of algorithms. If you want to focus on the CS side of it, remove all distractions.

My first CS professor insisted the first year be done all on the whiteboard. And this wasn't back in the dark ages. It was long after every student had a personal computer on their desk. Everything was done in a low-level pseudocode somewhere between Algol and C.

She felt that computers and actual programming languages would get in the way of learning the principles. I'm not quite that hardcore. But she was on to something. I learned more from that class than any other.

sideshowb5y ago

You can avoid getting bogged down by learning a limited subset of a language, though. e.g. in Python you could teach most algorithms with just conditionals and functions, and keep things pure functional using only tuples for storage. Introduce assignment, lists and loops whenever it suits you.

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doliveira5y ago· 1 in thread

Pascal is nice to teach the basics, but I would be very discouraged if I had started learning something that's so rarely used in the "real world".

retracOP5y ago

That's a fair point. Pascal is no longer a commercially significant language. Still, I do run into solid little projects that are written in FreePascal from time to time. Sometimes not so little.

https://wiki.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Free_Pascal

pjmlp5y ago

> It's the C++ of scripting languages.

Sorry, but Perl still wins there.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

12 comments · 4 top-level

echelon5y ago· 5 in thread

> It's the C++ of scripting languages.

This is such a fantastic analogy. Thank you!

Python's "batteries included" standard library stance takes it even beyond the C++ analogy in terms of sheer volume of out of the box capabilities you get.

BerislavLopac5y ago

Python has a built-in macro language. It's called Python.

prionassembly5y ago

Checkout Hylang, a Lispish language that compiles to Python, or maybe a Lispish syntax for Python? You can write pieces of code in .hy files and import them from .py files and vice-versa.

And then you have macros like in macros that traverse and transform code.

pansa25y ago

But Python still has a reputation of being a simple language for beginners. I’m not sure how that reputation endures. Is it just because of the lightweight syntax?

pjmlp5y ago

Because Python is easier to start programming with, BASIC like, but a large majority fails to actually read the official documentation.

If they would do that, then they would realize Python is as powerful as Common Lisp, Ada, C++,.... with similar doc size in pages.

type05y ago

It is deceptively simple. The Python learning curve looks like a snake - https://fabienmaussion.info/acinn_python_workshop/figures/xk...

2 more replies

sideshowb5y ago· 2 in thread

retracOP5y ago

sideshowb5y ago

1 more reply

doliveira5y ago· 1 in thread

Pascal is nice to teach the basics, but I would be very discouraged if I had started learning something that's so rarely used in the "real world".

retracOP5y ago

That's a fair point. Pascal is no longer a commercially significant language. Still, I do run into solid little projects that are written in FreePascal from time to time. Sometimes not so little.

https://wiki.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Free_Pascal

pjmlp5y ago

> It's the C++ of scripting languages.

Sorry, but Perl still wins there.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse