Ask HN: How do I stop companies from up-leveling me? Am I underselling myself?

12 pointsallthemcodes5y ago18 comments

I have a BS in CS and between 4.5-5 years of experience in mostly backend and some full-stack development. I consider myself a solid intermediate level engineer. Likely not too junior, but definitely not senior. I generally apply to SWE II positions, but then recruiters/hiring managers say I would be a better fit for SWE III roles. When I apply to mid-level positions, recruiters/hiring managers decide I'm a better fit for senior roles.

Honestly, I'm not that good. I'm a super mediocre coder. I try to be really transparent with my work experience and skill set and I acknowledge that I have weaknesses that need fixing and plenty of learning still left ahead. I never go into an interview and tell people I'm amazing. My attitude is more like "Eh, yeah I'm pretty decent I guess. I want to be awesome one day though, so looking forward to the learning experience at your company, it's a great opportunity, thanks for your time." I'm just afraid that potential employers think I'm capable of doing things that in reality I cannot do, and I don't want to go into the job and eventually get fired if I fail to meet the expectations that I was hired based on. I don't know if I can go against these employers and say, "No, I want to be a SWE 2 not a 3. No, I'm a mid-level SWE, not a senior. Interview me with that in mind and stop having such high expectations of me." I can't tell if I'm potentially lacking confidence, or if I'm misrepresenting my work experience to seem more impactful than it really was.

18 comments

gcheong5y ago

There will always, or eventually, be a point at every company where you will be tasked with something you haven't done before. At least if you're at a company that has challenging things to do. And for the most part you will be on your own. How good you get is pretty much up to you - no company cares much about mentoring or training except in superficial ways. That's been my experience at least. It seems these days Senior Engineer is a title given to basically anyone that isn't straight out of a bootcamp or college with a couple years or more under their belt.

allthemcodesOP5y ago

So basically it doesn't matter which level you're hired for, because you'll have to teach yourself how to do the job regardless (with minimal training/mentoring)?

gcheong5y ago

That's mostly been my experience. If you've got more than a couple years experience most companies expect you to perform with minimal direction beyond showing you where the code is. Perhaps I'm just cynical, which is a good possibility so grain of salt and all that, and your mileage may vary. You may consider asking in the interview where the interviewer feels their skills are today relative to where they were when they joined and how they got to that level. That doesn't mean I haven't worked with great people - and I think you should look for those people - who in some way have helped me level up my skill, but it's never been under any kind of formal or defined process or company value system.

1 more reply

drunkpotato5y ago

There comes a time when your internal expectations don’t align with the world, and this is one of those times. The days when “senior” meant a decade or more of experience are long gone. Now the industry has decided that 5 years is a senior software engineer, 10 years is a principal. Enjoy the higher pay while it lasts.

giantg25y ago

I see way more senior postings than everything else combined. Your comment about 5 years experience helps this make sense.

sevilo5y ago

I have the opposite issue, also have around 5 years of experienced, for more than once I have been perceived as a junior during interviews and then after working for 2-3 months managers and teams would throw comments like “we under-leveled you, let’s get you a promo and fix it” “you’re more senior than I thought”. I don’t know what gives the impression during interviews and it’s starting to frustrate me, I just want to be brought in at the right level that reflects what I’m able to offer. I’m a woman if that matters at all and I wonder if anyone else has encountered that and can offer some advice.

gcheong5y ago

"I’m a woman if that matters at all...". It could very well be. Not necessarily because you're being immediately discounted because you are a woman (though that could be a factor), but women oftentimes do not negotiate their position up front as much as men do. I don't know if that is true in your case, but if so perhaps holding out for a higher position up front, with reasoning provided, before accepting a position might help.

sethammons5y ago

Confidence and clear communication are huge parts of what gives the impression of seniority.

sharemywin5y ago

I think you over estimating what a SWE III/senior dev is.

Also, it's possible the what your asking for salary wise is more senior level. So to pay you correctly you need XYZ title.

croh5y ago

> Honestly, I'm not that good. I'm a super mediocre coder. I try to be really transparent with my work experience and skill set and I acknowledge that I have weaknesses that need fixing and plenty of learning still left ahead.

When you understand what you don't know, you become mature and journey towards excellence starts. So don't underestimate yourself, you'r on right path. Just stay passionate and curious. It will pay you off in long run. (I might be wrong, but in my experience people who talk loud knew very less)

> I'm just afraid that potential employers think I'm capable of doing things that in reality I cannot do, and I don't want to go into the job and eventually get fired if I fail to meet the expectations that I was hired based on.

Don't bother with these thoughts. If you get selected, it means you're a good fit (Again don't underestimate your interviewers). I was in similar dilemma before, but it worked out well.

> don't know if I can go against these employers and say, "No, I want to be a SWE 2 not a 3. No, I'm a mid-level SWE, not a senior. Interview me with that in mind and stop having such high expectations of me." I can't tell if I'm potentially lacking confidence, or if I'm misrepresenting my work experience to seem more impactful than it really was.

Everything depends on organization structure & culture. Designation doesn't play big role always. Things change across project to project and people to people. You may end up with no responsibility or all responsibility.

Also instead of planning career in SWE2/3/4, consider below categories based on responsibilities and skillset required.

- IC (SWE2/3/4/architect)

- Manager (Delivery Manager/Product Owners/Program Managers etc)

- Executives (Directors/Managers/VPs)

- Enterprenures

So if you're SWE2, you can easily SURVIVE as SWE3/4/architect.

Chyzwar5y ago

There is no industry standard for SWE. In startup 5 years experience might be senior but in S&P500 might be just a mid level.

Listen to theirs expectations. Senior position might be not necessary scary. A lot of places expect more communications/mentoring skills than coding from senior.

atmosx5y ago

Apart from the technical side of things, there is a level of maturity regarding behavior and high level approach that comes into play. Maybe you have these traits naturally, thus ppl assume you are a senior developer.

I wouldn’t get too stuck in levels (junior, senior, principal, etc.). They don’t map between companies the way you’d expect.

LogicX5y ago

You’re technical and have self-awareness of failings?

I’d hire you to be a manager. I wouldn’t be worried you can’t learn and grow.

afarrell5y ago

Note that being aware of one's failings doesn't necessarily mean a person has yet learned how to mitigate them.

And it is downright spirit-crushing to go into a situation thinking, "I do not know what I'm doing", ask for help only to be told to have more self-confidence, fail, and then have others be disappointed in you for your 'obvious' failures.

quickthrower25y ago

Wow sounds like the bar is low in this thread’s bubble. Is this FAANG land? Weird because it’s famously hard to get through those interviews. Interested from across a pond.

allthemcodesOP5y ago

Hah, thanks!

giantg25y ago

I have a similar issue. I'm also wondering if I'm selling myself short (prior to switching stacks). I also get many more emails for senior dev positions even though I'm midlevel.

I'd say give it a shot.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

18 comments

gcheong5y ago

allthemcodesOP5y ago

So basically it doesn't matter which level you're hired for, because you'll have to teach yourself how to do the job regardless (with minimal training/mentoring)?

gcheong5y ago

1 more reply

drunkpotato5y ago

giantg25y ago

I see way more senior postings than everything else combined. Your comment about 5 years experience helps this make sense.

sevilo5y ago

gcheong5y ago

sethammons5y ago

Confidence and clear communication are huge parts of what gives the impression of seniority.

sharemywin5y ago

I think you over estimating what a SWE III/senior dev is.

Also, it's possible the what your asking for salary wise is more senior level. So to pay you correctly you need XYZ title.

croh5y ago

Don't bother with these thoughts. If you get selected, it means you're a good fit (Again don't underestimate your interviewers). I was in similar dilemma before, but it worked out well.

Also instead of planning career in SWE2/3/4, consider below categories based on responsibilities and skillset required.

- IC (SWE2/3/4/architect)

- Manager (Delivery Manager/Product Owners/Program Managers etc)

- Executives (Directors/Managers/VPs)

- Enterprenures

So if you're SWE2, you can easily SURVIVE as SWE3/4/architect.

Chyzwar5y ago

There is no industry standard for SWE. In startup 5 years experience might be senior but in S&P500 might be just a mid level.

Listen to theirs expectations. Senior position might be not necessary scary. A lot of places expect more communications/mentoring skills than coding from senior.

atmosx5y ago

I wouldn’t get too stuck in levels (junior, senior, principal, etc.). They don’t map between companies the way you’d expect.

LogicX5y ago

You’re technical and have self-awareness of failings?

I’d hire you to be a manager. I wouldn’t be worried you can’t learn and grow.

afarrell5y ago

Note that being aware of one's failings doesn't necessarily mean a person has yet learned how to mitigate them.

quickthrower25y ago

Wow sounds like the bar is low in this thread’s bubble. Is this FAANG land? Weird because it’s famously hard to get through those interviews. Interested from across a pond.

allthemcodesOP5y ago

Hah, thanks!

giantg25y ago

I have a similar issue. I'm also wondering if I'm selling myself short (prior to switching stacks). I also get many more emails for senior dev positions even though I'm midlevel.

I'd say give it a shot.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse