It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops.
Anyway, this next $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my complaints...
It is and it isn't. It depends if/when you stop. I just got $250 keyboard. My last one was also in that range. Though it lasted me around 10 years.
I don't think its evil wanting to have nice things. Its problem when 'you life to buy things, not buy things to live.'
I have never peeked over the price wall into the higher end stuff because it genuinely has never occurred to me that my current keyboard+mouse were hindering my productivity.
High contrast screen? Sure, squinting hurts. Office-cancelling headphones? Sure, loud noises ruin my concentration
But keyboard and mouse have never been am issue... When did you start to suspect that you needed to get a better keyboard?
That'd be an interesting feature honestly.
https://www.workwhilewalking.com/do-treadmill-desks-actually...
Or, maybe better, glue on a stopwatch.
The price seems irrelevant based on the rest of your post (I mean, assuming spending $250 doesn't put you at financial risks). The only question that you should ask yourself (but I'm sure you already know) is if you need a new and better keyboard or not.
there's more to keyboards. why do i have a nice one? to enjoy the typing experience - feedback + sound + appearance.
nothing wrong with nice things that make your life better. i spend an obscene amount of time with a keyboard. i want the experience to be as perfected as possible.
specific to this keyboard: i want an ergo layout, but would not buy this keyboard unless there was a switch-less and cap-less option - 365 (plus fees + taxes + shipping/whatever) is a lot to pay and then also buy switches and keycaps
(Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!)
Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.
But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless.
Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market.
For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware.
It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.
I liked the previous gen better. It has slightly longer travel than the new one, very similar to the pre-butterfly Macbooks.
Having said that, I prefer the feel of the butterflies over the magic ones. Even though the travel is very short, it's very tactile.
I had a great surprise with the - haha - Raspberry Pi keyboard. It has a firm touch, good travel and small footprint. It feels much nicer than any keyboard in its price range has the right to feel.
I'd love to try the Kinesis, but I'm not sure I like its footprint. I already have a Unicomp 122-key Battlecruiser on my Linux box and it's quite enough .
Kalih Blue are an option if you prefer to pound more (not offered with this keyboard, though). But I only find clicky switches acceptable if you're working from home, or have a personal office. Sitting next to someone else's clicky keyboard is not all that enjoyable.
Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.
This is literally the only keyboard I have found that uses those switches.
[1] https://www.prohavit.com/products/hv-kb395l-low-profile-mech...
For low profile switches there is the Kailh Choc family, though there is a limited choice of caps.
It’s better than the cancerous lump of excrement that is the Magic Mouse 2 though.
Is this some kind of cultural thing, where nobody in the DIY keyboard space is interested in making such a keyboard, even though there are keyboards marketed as ergonomic with cheap dome switches I don't prefer but still have function keys? Are "split keyboard" and "function keys" mutually exclusive properties? I don't understand.
EDIT: Okay, I did not look hard enough at all.
This looks like the kind of keyboard I would be interested in using.
It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you do it's such an efficient and enjoyable typing experience.
[1] https://atreus.technomancy.us/ keyboard.io also recently completed a kickstarter campaign for mass-produced Atreuses and are taking pre-orders for the next run: https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs.
2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording.
I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.
Keeb.io has a split keyboard with F keys on top, and macro keys on the left. Not a full layout with a numpad, but getting closer. I built a Quefrency by them and like it a lot.
You get used to switching back and forth in ~2 weeks.
If you spend all your day typing, definitely spend the $ and the time to learn to type on an ergonomic keyboard with good quality switches. I think the kinesis or maltron have the best research on their ergonomics & build quality. I highly recommend them.
Maltron also makes the claim that you can type 80 wpm with their 1 handed keyboard but there seems to be no publicly available evidence of anyone getting anywhere near that fast.
I agree its pretty easy to switch back and forth between different split keyboards and to traditional keyboards.
I use an Ergodox-EZ and a Dactyl Manuform on a daily basis for 2 different systems.
Ortholinear layout really is better but as the marketing says, it takes a bit and is a journey.
I have missed the clustered nav keys but have also really enjoyed having them closer to standard hand placement.
The 'layering' approach makes the function keys as simple as ctrl-×.
FWIW, I'm a happy customer and you may need to read this comment accordingly. I'd suggest it might be worth trying it out. I still have my MS keyboard but never want to use it.
Same, but for the Natural Keyboard Pro[1].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#...
Then they stopped making them. I have one remaining in storage, and two in active usage. One of those (this one I'm typing on now) has a flakey 1 key. I'm really dreading the day I finally destroy it and have to find some new keyboard to replace it. Nothing I've ever seen compares to the original MS Natural Elite.
You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK
Here's mine: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/64YXl/la...
Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechanical keyboards you have the ability to change keycaps to whatever you want.
I'm a touch typist, so i switched to blank keycaps https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/
The minimalism idea is that since these are all programmable, we can design them to require much less finger/hand movement by taking more advantage of layers, various strategies of key activation, key layouts, etc.
There's an active Discord for the whole genre of the smaller, 40% keyboards.
We can't be the only ones surely? It's such an obvious problem and they all get it wrong.
This keyboard seems to solve both of those problems so I may take the plunge and buy one.
Also keycap set makers generally just include one of every key.
The keyboard is programmable using a visual editor or C code: https://github.com/dharmab/ergodox
I looked at over a dozen split keyboard options. Seems like no matter if you build or buy, it'll cost around $300. I decided I didn't want to also buy a soldering kit and wait months for parts to arrive.
Here's a comparison site between all the known split keyboard layouts (no moonlander yet though): https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
Full Disclosure: - soldering the switches is required (I didn't include the price of the soldering iron or solder in the $120) - I used Gateron Brown switches which are some of the cheapest mechanical switches - I got blank DSA keycaps from Amazon(I bought special deep dish caps for the f and j keys from pimp my keyboard)
My personal favorite is the Lily58: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe.... It avoids having a preposterous number of thumb keys and has a number row. And the OLEDs are a nice touch.
https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-keyboards/
(If anyone actually enjoys writing JavaScript, or can do it in their sleep, feel free to take over. I'm 95% a backend dev, so I was just aiming for something easy to maintain, ideally generated from something like a CSV file. The intention is to link to it from Reddit's /s/ErgoMechKeyboards.)
Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .
I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.
[1] https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl...
[2] https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria
* okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands.
So the ~200 I spent on my custom Dactyl that has actually taken my pain from a level ~4 to near 0 is really a drop in the bucket for my health.
(+1 for the DM! I have the normal Dactyl because a thumb injury makes the cluster unusable for me, but I have plenty of friends who love the DM.)
And I like that you can download templates so you can print them out and find the right size.
All other Ergodox, or Ergodox alternatives, seem like much more work to get working the way you want.
Anyway, the thumb clusters were my primary annoyance with my Ergodox, so i ordered a Moonlander. I hope it works out.
Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular. That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it.
But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you choose?
Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend ;)
I would also have preserved the full layout, to prevent having to needlessly retrain some muscle memory, but being able to do things like remap "Tab+hjkl" to "{}[]" is fantastic.
I should actually finish writing up that post I started writing in December...
1) the rubber legs tend to fall out and go missing 2) they’re very susceptible to static electricity shocks on the exposed metal parts 3) the usb cable connector is fragile and I’d you move much, it can get damaged inside the keyboard requiring you open it up to fix. I wish they had used usb-c and put it in a better/easier location.
I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true.
Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like:
* The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the left side. On the ergodox, the right side is the primary side.
* It's thinner. The bulkiness of the ergodox ez makes it look cheap, which it very much is not.
* The tilting of the thumb cluster might make that 3rd key accessible to me. On my ergodox, my thumbs can only operate two of the buttons.
* They tried a new layout on the thumb cluster.
Some other thoughts I have:
* I find it strange that the default layouts for both keyboards split the arrow keys. Some games use the arrows for moving the viewport, and I find split arrow keys unworkable for that.
* The rotating hinge for the thumb cluster is neat, but what about just moving them closer? The keyboardio Model 01 manages to get 5 workable thumb buttons with this. But it did sacrifice the rows beneath zxc and ,./ Maybe that is inevitable.
* The site is responsive, loaded fairly fast (550ms, which is good considering I'm on my work VPN. HN takes 250ms), and is smaller than I expected considering all the images (1.6MB).
* I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros etc).
* EDIT: I have been curious if a design where the thumb buttons push inward is workable. That direction seems more suitable to the thumb. Again, I think the issue is being able to fit the buttons without affecting the keys for the fingers.
Still, I'd probably give this a try if I needed a new keyboard.
I ended up looking at the options in https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards based on your comment. I noticed all the ones that moved the thumb cluster in, also don't have the bottom row that the ergodox does.
It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks.
But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.
I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.
My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of course I could have remapped them.
The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk, and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's best in a tray, although some trays may not be tall enough for it.
As for the Freestyle, I like the split design, the customizable layout, and the customizable lighting (I have a different color for QWERTY and Dvorak). Add a couple of USB ports, and it would be nearly perfect. The "6" key is on the wrong half, and I might experiment with a layout that isn't staggered typewriter style.
I do tend to fidget with the position of the Freestyle throughout the day. This is another keyboard that might work better in a tray.
I don't know if I'd call this Moonlander "next generation," but it's an intriguing combination of what I like in the Advantage and Freestyle.
Kinesis could of course have gone with an ortholinear layout but they didn't because the layout they chose much better maps to the actual geometry of the hand. Yes, it takes a few hours to learn to adapt, typically spread out over a couple days, but no that's not difficult and no it doesn't impact your ability to jump over to a normal keyboard.
100% stop to serious repetitive stress injury problems I had been experiencing with other keyboards, fully programmable layout, and a great high grade mechanical design that's lasted a decade or more without complaint.
I've had an Advantage as my daily driver for 14 years. I've only ever had to replace the rest pads.
It's a fantastic and VERY VERY comfortable keyboard, but you do have a little bit of a learning curve due to the unusual layout.
It's also wired and has no backlight, but simple is sometimes better.
Looks line ZSA is borrowing Kinesis's idea of putting a number of special keys into a "thumb-bar". Not sure if Kinesis actually invented that idea, but I think they were the first to bring it to market.
And yes, the Moonlander looks very interesting!
Maltron keyboards are excellent but expensive and hard to source, particularly outside of the UK.
I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain.
But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a normal keyboard, to the right of the "l" key, you've got another 3 keys - a ;, a ', and the enter key. They're all pretty important.
But on the Ergodox, you only have 2 more keys. Meaning you either have to move the return key to somewhere else, or move the "'" key somewhere else. Both of them break tons of muscle memory, and for no real benefit IMO.
In addition, the lack of that extra column means that symbols like [], like -=, etc can't be in their regular locations. Obviously, as a programmer, these are all keys I use a lot.
I don't know that much about mechanical keyboards, but I really don't get why this choice was made. It seems like a completely self-own here, making it so much harder to get used to this keyboard.
I find that a good introductory layout to this kind of keyboard is the Kinesis Advantage 2 [1]. As you can see a bunch of common keypresses usually delegated to the pinkies have been set on the thumb clusters. On my Ergodox, I also have symbols layers that allow you to reach common symbols without moving my fingers significantly from the home row. It definitely takes an adjustment period but my RSI definitely thinks its worth it!
For what it's worth, you'll eventually have complete muscle memory and be able to switch back and forth without even thinking. It's liberating to try out different layouts and see what ends up making sense for you over time.
I got partway through an Ergodox build before realizing this and will probably never use this thing.
Do you have a reference for this? I don't have it but use ergonomic tools to avoid such in the long term.
I would definitely recommend getting a QMK split keyboard with extra keys, I love mine, but I would advise that people get a staggered one to avoid having to learn to type again from scratch.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites like https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches, it's pretty much plug and play
1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk
2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever
As it is, it seems too short to comfortably have each half to my sides when laying down.
Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left unassigned and they are all kind of terrible choices.
I guess this means my setup is insane. I’m fine with that.
I suppose I could do something terrible like have Quicksilver grab shortcuts that involved control and make it press menu items for me, I already have a couple of keypresses that invoke scripts to make AI do things that way, but that has complications like "now my key shortcuts are managed in two places" and "some of these shortcuts don't show up in the menus, which makes things complicated when I am doing a less-frequently-used shortcut".
(Now that I think about it I could maybe solve the second issue with OSX's keyboard shortcuts settings... oh, nope, "you cannot add keyboard shortcuts for the application Adobe Illustrator 2020". Also I'd have to remake them every time there was an update that changed the name.)
There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality.
I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.
The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached.
My board: https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC
I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.
(Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs just 34 keys: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...
I like the visuals of the ErgoDox-EZ the most, but still willing to wait for the new keyboard.io, whenever that one comes out.
For me, at least, it's not a big win. I'm mostly touching the inner edge of the key because my pinkies aren't that laterally flexible.
I like a lot of tilt and low to the desk, and that extra 0.5u of width ends up raising the whole thing more than it needs to.
I have large hands and the ErgoDox thumb cluster is just too damn far away. Bringing it within reach is a meaningful improvement.
- It's basically Ergodox EZ for the main part, from the same company.
- The thumb block is more comfortable now, but 2 keys smaller.
- The position of wrist pad is adjustable.
- Backlight, legs, and wrist pads are included in the base set.
- The price of the whole thing is about the same as of Ergodox EZ in a minimal set, without backlight and wrist pads.
Still not barrel-shaped as e.g. Kinesis Advantage; you can put the parts quite far aside, though.
Looks like a buy if you were planning to buy a mechanical ergonomic keyboard.
It's got two independent halves that you can angle how you want, and put at actual shoulder width apart. It lacks the ortholinear layout, mechanical switches, and programmability of the Moonlander.
I went from the MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (which I used for years and loved) to the Freestyle Pro (same layout, but with mechanical switches and programmability) and it made a huge difference in my posture and shoulder tension.
It definitely takes up less space than the MS 4000, but it's still two pretty bulky halves that don't pack up to travel particularly easily.
[A] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ [B] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-vip3-accessory/
I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0
https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-con...
I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key.
I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world.
Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book-keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.
But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places.
So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice.
Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.
It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?
Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard.
> Ergonomic
People value the long-term health of their wrists.
> Too few keys
Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce finger travel.
> Emphasis on key feel
If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to feel good.
> niche of standard ISO
Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design decisions are a relic of the typewriter age.
The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes much more sense in the modern age.
The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace.
This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place common keys away from each other.
Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO, when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards
US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key. Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.
So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with UK labels on.
Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.
What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps. They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.
There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter key.
Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are. You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges, such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of their keyboards.
The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num-pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind switch choice.
Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys. God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when you move out of the US layout.
For the real classic look, I just had to replace the 2 oddly colored keycaps (provided in the box).
The dealbreaker for me is the connectivity. A keyboard should be able to connect over a wire (and/or a wireless dongle), Bluetooth 3, Bluetooth 5 and telepathy.
A £10 mouse can connect with a dongle that is stored inside the mouse, or via BT 3/5. There are chips for this.
I might have to send an email in block caps to Durgod with my demands, since their products are so nice, down to the keycaps labels.
Thanks for the tip.
They have taken an interesting approach with thumb cluster, single key on farend and 3 on near end of thumb. I did the opposite of that, on account of thumb being not that flexible in bent position.
Over the years my daily driver has been kinesis advantage2. I tried ergodox but really disliked thumbcluster placement and additional middle keys. I made a keeb.io Nyqist recently and got a few pcbs printed for Redox, need to build that out.
It is really hard to go back to non-split keyboards after using split for a while, and kinesis advantage is still the gold standard imo, concave keywell alone is the reason to spend north of $350 on it.
I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to get to the touchpad.
I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers:
* Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I use the MBP too.
* Requires a lot of vertical movement, i.e. big deeply depressed keys
* Tall keys that require my wrists to hold my fingers in the air, or for my wrists to lay on supports which put all the weight on my wrists instead of my arms.
I have a Kenesis Freestyle for Mac, and I don't use it for these reasons, even though it relaxes my wrists rotation around the vertical axis.
In terms of the tall versus short keys... Look for one that you can get/build with either Kailh low profile "chocs" or their even lower profile "choc mini" switches. The "linear" versions will be most like the feel of the Apple keyboards.
I’m currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests.
I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I’m convinced they make my wrists worse.
I think the next options for me to try are split, tenting and staggered columns.
Is there a chance of trying these out without spending this kind of money? I don’t think I’m up to the task of soldering switches, unfortunately.
I think the main ergo flat keyboard (staggered columns) with 3 rows 6 columns are the Gergo / Kyria / Corne depending on the number and placement of thumb keys (they can be found assembled to order).
For 3d / sculpted keyboards, this person is selling assembled to order Dactyl manuforms: https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/
A good reference for flat boards is https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/
via https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/s...
Then for the sculpted keyboards, mostly the Dactyl/ Dactyl Manuform families there are a bunch of vendors. The cheapest one is in the first link. Otherwise one guy is currently selling some of his split on reddit's mechmarket.
I can pay for innovation but this style is old
When the switch bottoms out, it's like your fingers have hit a wall: this is the norm with most membrane switch designs, and with linear mechanical switches, which are usually light. With tactile and clicky switches, the concept is to reduce bottoming out by indicating the activation with heavier force partway through the downstroke. A pairing of heavy keycaps and heavy tactile switches is often considered satisfying for typists because then the heft of the switch has been balanced out; a light tap will fling the key down past the tactile bump and spring it up without the same degree of muscle activation as a linear switch. And it is possible to have "too heavy" keycaps for the switch, which simply won't work(always activated).
With the key height, as well, what will matter is tension at rest, which will depend on overall posture. In theory you move the keyboard down if the keys are taller.
Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly tall.
It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable.
I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm.
I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but making it out of cold, hard plastic does not make it look comfortable.
That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards.
Citation needed. What if I don't like the angle TECK chose? Laptops for sure should start slightly angling, but if the unit is separate from the computer, why rant against user choice?
And from Sci-Fi Anime from the time, and afterwards.
This was their [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer project, and those keyboards belonged to it. So that concept has been in the air from then on, at least.
Keyboards are nice and in many cases a far superior input interface compared to a mouse/touchpad but in my opinion it is just a stepping stone towards "the real deal".
After voice interface there will be thought interfaces and then we can be productive if the hardware, apps and os-es are good enough.
I do plan on making a normal staggered version of this, along with the other 40% in both normal and staggered columnar.
I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are noticeably better when using them.
A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.
If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander.
Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout. With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.
It’s concave!
I would not have coped well if not for Covid-19. When I am at the office im just there for meetings, because getting things done now on a normal keyboard is frustrating.
But really, my shoulder pain is so much less, it's ultimately relaxed being able to work both arms on shoulder width. Ban the mouse as well, and no more arm-swinging.
Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!
The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains: why would anybody do that ?
Meet the Ferris keeb that was just recently developed. Currently built using QMK but will eventually have Rust firmware. https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris
I have two of the earlier keyboards (ergodox ez). I gladly paid the price because it makes me more comfortable. I find it similar to a nice monitor or chair.
I don't know if my performance is better, but it's a nice piece of gear that's a joy to use.
Good ergonomics are awesome, macros are cool, but this is like a Channel Bag for nerds, if you like it awesome but don't deceive yourself into needing it.
I love tech as everyone in here, I like my gizmos as well (Oculus quest being the most beloved one) so I understand, I just hate the consumerism that this type of item needs to survive, phones being the prime example of this, but a good keyboard ($100 range maybe) is probably marginally worst at it's task than this thing is.
Again, don't take it as a personal offence.
Honestly, after how much money I’ve spent trying to deal with my RSI (doctors, exams, physical therapy, home workout items and programs) the 250 is nothing for something that isn’t exacerbating my injury and in fact reducing inflammation enough that things are finally healing.
I bought a ZSA keyboard (not this one) due to otherwise having to type on a crappy butterfly keyboard on a laptop provided by work (when my E key started repeating, I knew I was over it). I could've bought some sort of crappy rubber dome thing, but I didn't. And I'm very happy with my purchase.
There's no keyboard out there for $100 that's split, ortholiner-ish, QMK or similar programmable, has layers, has thumb clusters, backlit keys, tented, and has hot-swappable mechanical keyswitches. I really wish there was.
I'm not offended, but there just isn't a product that compares at a price point that you think isn't excessive.