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0 pointsWalterBright6y ago0 comments

Doesn't matter what Lincoln said. The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism. Didn't work. Slavery ended in Russia at the same time. Slavery simply couldn't compete with free markets.

> race based slavery began under capitalism,

Nope. Slavery had gone on for millennia. How about the ancient Egyptians enslaving the Hebrews? How about Columbus enslaving the Indians?

(The native americans practiced slavery, too.)

Slavery died out in the northern colonies before 1800 because it was unprofitable, i.e. free markets killed it. It was dying in the south, too, until Eli Whitney revived it with his cotton gin. But that was just a temporary reprieve, it was dying again by the 1850s, and the South tried to save it by seceding.

Free markets killed slavery, because slavery simply cannot compete with them.

> the genocide of native americans happened during capitalism

As for genocide, that has happened since the Cro-Magnon killed off the Neandertals. The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands. Until very recently, when societies have been getting more peaceful, along with the rise of free markets. (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?)

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dntbnmpls6y ago· 3 in thread

> Doesn't matter what Lincoln said.

It's not only what lincoln said, it's what the US government did. We've had protectionism from the very beginning. Just because you don't like the reality doesn't mean you get to dismiss it.

> The Civil War was caused by the South's attempts to protect itself from capitalism.

Actually, it's was the exact opposite. The industrial North favored protectionism to protect manufacturing. The South favored free trade since they wanted to ship cotton to britain.

"Slave owners preferred low-cost manual labor with no mechanization. Northern manufacturing interests supported tariffs and protectionism while southern planters demanded free trade.[65] The Democrats in Congress, controlled by Southerners, wrote the tariff laws in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1850s, and kept reducing rates so that the 1857 rates were the lowest since 1816. The Republicans called for an increase in tariffs in the 1860 election. The increases were only enacted in 1861 after Southerners resigned their seats in Congress."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

One of the major reasons for the civil war was the South's insistence on less tariffs and more free trade.

Why do you write lies after you've been proven wrong?

Once again, for the last time, slave owning south war pro-free trade, the anti-slave north was pro-protectionism. This is a matter of fact.

> The entire history of humanity is one of violently pushing other people off their lands.

Nope. And race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism. Also, there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism.

> (For example, after defeating Italy, Japan and Germany in WW2, the US (and Britain and France) gave those countries back to their citizens. How often has that happened?)

Historically, all the time. Almost every empire in human history - from the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans, etc. Otherwise, we wouldn't have chinese, indians, arabs, etc. Racial genocide was actually very rare. Nations conquered and formed empires. They didn't exterminate. What happened in the US, Canada, Australia, Nazi Germany, etc are outliers. Also, we didn't really give back those countries yet as we have occupying forces in all three nations. But whatever.

WalterBrightOP6y ago

The South was afraid the North would enact tariffs on cotton, thus crippling the only significant product of the Southern economy - cotton. It was about tariffs on cotton. Not anything else.

> there is a difference between "pushing other people off their lands" and systematic racial genocide under the age of capitalism.

The reservations and Indian nations within the US suggests the former, not the latter.

> the greeks, romans, mongols, ottomans

They didn't give their conquered territories back. They installed puppet governments that obeyed the conquerors. Japan and Germany are not puppets of the US.

> race based genocide only occurred during the age of capitalism

"By 1650, hereditary enslavement based upon color, not upon religion, was a bitter reality in the older Catholic colonies of the New World."

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/05/peter-h-wood-strang...

Also, the slave economy collapsed during the Civil War, while the northern free economy thrived. The reason Lee was even at Gettysburg was because the Confederate army was shoeless and nearby Harrisburg had a shoe factory.

thejynxed6y ago

One slight correction - they were upset about the proposed tariff on cotton being sent to the textile mills in New England. They were already being tariffed to hell and back on every product they produced that was shipped overseas while non-slave state producers were excluded from the same export tariffs. Gen. Lee was also at Gettysburg because he hoped to catch hold of the major railway depot in Harrisburg that was being used by the Union to supply the entire war effort east of Missouri, Milton Hershey's new chocolate factory, and of course, the shoe factory.

dntbnmpls6y ago

> The South was afraid the North would enact tariffs on cotton, thus crippling the only significant product of the Southern economy - cotton. It was about tariffs on cotton. Not anything else.

So not free trade and you were completely wrong in your original comment.

> The reservations and Indian nations within the US suggests the former, not the latter.

Actually it doesn't. Nice little pathetic attempt at denying native genocide.

> They didn't give their conquered territories back. They installed puppet governments that obeyed the conquerors. Japan and Germany are not puppets of the US.

Actually Japan and Germany are puppets. As a matter of fact we installed the governments that they current have and they are firmly within our sphere of influence. Maybe this reality makes you uncomfortable because it doesn't align wtih your agenda, but once again, you don't get to dismiss reality just because you feel like it.

> "By 1650, hereditary enslavement based upon color, not upon religion, was a bitter reality in the older Catholic colonies of the New World."

Since the catholic world gave us capitalism, what's your point?

"Capitalism in its modern form can be traced to the emergence of agrarian capitalism and mercantilism in the early Renaissance, in city-states like Florence."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

> Also, the slave economy collapsed during the Civil War, while the northern free economy thrived.

What's your bizarre agenda? "Free economy"? Why are you being so sneaky and using weasel terminology? The "free economy" of protectionism and tariffs?

> The reason Lee was even at Gettysburg was because the Confederate army was shoeless and nearby Harrisburg had a shoe factory.

Yes, the shoe factory existed thanks to a non-free trade protectionist policy supported by the north.

To HN's credit, it's rare to come across such a dishonest and blatantly agenda driven comment. Even rarer to see one double down and continue to lie when confronted with facts and evidence.

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