New System76 Laptop: Lemur Pro (opens in new tab)

I am not sure if this will ever get better. E.g. Intel GPUs that were perfectly fine for quite a while, now have regular hangs with Linux 5.3 and 5.4 [1]. Since Linux 5.4 is an LTS version, various distributions have already switched to it. I had to downgrade to Linux 4.19 on one of my machines, because my GPU locked up ever 1-2 days.

Nonsense like this make Linux difficult to use on a laptop that you have to carry around and get real work done.

[1] https://linuxreviews.org/Linux_Kernel_5.5_Will_Not_Fix_The_F...

> wifi setup 1000x more complex than windows/osx

Which DE? Ultimately most DEs use NetworkManager but they have different GUI frontends. KDE Plasma's frontend has all options inside one menu. I never found it more difficult than Windows but that being said, I've left Windows behind about 9 years ago after years of dual booting, so my Windows experience might be outdated.

> Lots of extreme battery drain when trying to do certain activities

I guess that's due to no native video decoding. It's getting there, very slowly. It's being worked on as we speak: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1610199

I've been running Ubuntu on a Dell XPS at work since 2016. I had problems using a docking station from the start so I removed it from the equation and haven't had any significant other issues since. Battery life is good, no significant networking problems, etc. I've very much enjoyed the experience.

I just assumed that life would only be better on a System 76 machine. I was very surprised by this post.

I am already running a Linux laptop (ThinkPad t460s) as my daily driver, so I've already conquered the Wifi setup issues, and I've never had problems switching monitors. I haven't tried Zoom but most video conferencing and e.g. YouTube seem to work fine with hardware video acceleration.

I wonder if this laptop would make a good upgrade from the T460s for me.

About 6 weeks ago I switched from a Thinkpad to a System76 Darter Pro, and it's been pretty solid. I have none of the problems you describe.

It did require Debian testing, because the Intel GPU drivers for the latest Intel CPUs are not in Debian stable yet. But it's a solid machine, and like the new Lemur Pro, it comes with Coreboot preloaded which is excellent.

That whole kernel 5.4 thing with missing critical fixes for the Intel GPUs was a major screwup though, that's true. But they are all in 5.5 I believe, and have also been backported to the 5.4 kernel that's in Debian testing. Since those landed, my machine has been a pleasure to use.

I'm not disputing your experience, just pointing out that I use a laptop from Lenovo (albeit a Galaga Pro), and have not had any of this. The WiFi and Zoom issues I can definitely say have not impacted me; I cannot honestly say I've tried wired networking with it very much. The battery life has also been fine.

Again, not disputing your experience, just saying mine was different. It was a Galaga Pro vs. your Lemur Pro, but I would have thought the software issues would be more similar than that.

> .. software issues were always letting it down, and I was wasting lots of time trying to patch/fix linux configuration issues & bugs ..

Ten year old FUD!

When I bought my System76 laptop 18 months ago, I promised myself that I would stop my 30+ year Linux habit of playing with system configurations - a fun hobby but a time sink.

I have stuck with System76's branded Ubuntu named Pop!_OS and always install their updates. So far it has been fairly trouble free except for a little time spent when updating CUDA drivers for the GPU.

Heck it's impossible to have consistent keyboard shortcuts across programs, no matter the desktop environment. I tried everything, wrote config files, remapped layouts, set Firefox config values for modifier keys, etc. Impossible. I got close with KDE, but eventually gave up.

My Macbook Air recently died and in a hurry (lockdown is tomorrow) I've bought a refurbished Dell Latitude which is a little bit more powerful (last week). Surprised that Desktop Ubuntu 19.10 still does not compress RAM (but easy fixable) although Windows and Mac do that by default. It is super necessary with Chrome (Apps). Biggest downsite is that programs/sites like Slack, conferences or Youtube videos are not as smooth as on Mac although I have more horsepower now in sense of CPU. I have the big feeling that the CPU scheduler on the Mac&Windows does a way better job than Linux on desktop environments. E.g. hitting the 100% CPU area (only with Chrome somehow) I can hear the crackling sounds on conferencing calls.

Have you tried running Windows 10 on it? I wonder if Windows can handle it any better.

Maybe they just did a poor job with that model? You have way way way more issues with your brand new designed for linux machine than I do with my 2015 thinkpad which has basically none of those issues.

Granted the only video conferencing I've done is google hangouts or facebook.

Needing to restart applications when switching monitors seems particularly strange.

Edit: Ubuntu non lts and gnome anything after 2 have been mediocre bug factories for a while. It's not too shocking to find they still are.

Had similar experience with Entroware laptop - when fan started running, it goes with full speed until I turned off the laptop completely. Tried various linux drivers but none has fixed that issue.

The other issue was with the WiFi - sometimes I had to restart it like literally 10 times to make WiFi module work :|

(once it was connected I had no issues until I've turned laptop off / restart it)

I had a similar experience a few years ago with an "n series" Dell, and the solution was to only use the install disk that came with the machine, and not try to do a full OS install.

I tossed ubuntu+mate on my galago pro 4, works like a champ (and the interface works like every other ubuntu+mate that I have)

Is the lemur notably different?

We run linux on dell XPS13 at work unfortunately its the same. We do run debian stable though.

I wish someone else besides Apple would discover the 16:10 ratio. I love my MBP but every company I've worked at has been allergic to OS X. Right now I'm stuck working from home on a 1366x768 screen because it's "business-class".

1080p at 14" really isn't bad though. The state of high-DPI in Ubuntu (on which Pop_OS is based) is _okay_ but you're not really missing out on much with the bigger pixels.

I really appreciate with System76 is doing and if I were in the market for a laptop I'd consider this. Their desktops are very cool too as they custom-build the cases themselves. They do seem to be in kind of a "no man's land" market-wise, where a lot of people who would want Linux are technically savvy enough to build their own computer or install it on an existing laptop. But I hope they keep it up and hit their stride!

Can’t upvote enough! It’s also my main beef with many chromebooks - decent specs and just unacceptable screens for productivity.

Even though Linux may not scale resolution as good as a Mac or Windows yet, being able to fit more text on the screen is huge for productivity.

When you factor in new gaming options like Stadia or Nvidia Now, where you can game high end stuff without the high end hardware locally, FHD is just disappointing.

They sell one laptop with a high-resolution screen but it weighs 8.6 lbs (3.9 kg).

https://system76.com/laptops/serval

Also, 16:9.

Apple laptops are barely usable at 16:10, it's night and day compared to 3:2 on Surface Books (my favorite laptop of all time by far).

Similar boat. A 2k screen like the X1 Carbon would have been a good compromise on screen quality and battery life.

The old Lemur Pro had a high-res screen available. This one probably will too, they must have just failed to put it on this web page.

Ah, at this screen size hires displays arent worth it (for me atleast) Linux is much more of a hassel on hidpi dipslays too.

You really don't want to run HiDPI on Linux, applications will look blurry and ugly. It's better to just stick 1x scaling.

The only complaint I have with a 720p webcam is that I need to glue a cover on top of it myself.

The limiting factor on webcams in laptops is internal USB bus. On phones the camera is wired directly on the board with direct channel to the CPU so the phone can do all the computation processing as fast as possible on the fly. The laptop webcams use standard USB 2.0, which has very limited bandwidth compared to what phones have.

There's no reason this couldn't be circumvented, but some custom webcam bus would significantly increase the cost disproportionate to the value it adds. Ppl just don't care about laptop cameras enough to pay that much more money for a good one.

Lower res will make you look better on video conferencing, no pimples or poores showing up and there’s considerable bandwidth savings.

Feels good enough. I'm not going to take pictures with it, just communicate.

Do you need to broadcast everything pore and hair on your face?

Lids are thin, much thinner than a phone. You can’t really feel bigger optic in there.

I spent 4000 USD for my MacBook Pro, and the camera is 720p.

> smartphones come with 16 MP cameras

Front-facing?

If you're taking about magsafe, it's patented. Apple reverted to USB-C charging on all current models, which is not as cool as magsafe, but on the bright side, you can now charge on either side and use the port for other things when not charging.

I could be wrong, but IIRC there is a limit on how much power can be delivered over USB-C that is arguably easy to hit for powerful laptops.

Perhaps that's one reason among others.

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Edit: Could the downvoter explain the downvote please?

Edit2: Quick googling tells me USB Type C supports upto 100W power delivery [1], while an example laptop, such as X1 Extreme Gen 2 can go up to 129W of power draw under load [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Power

[2] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Extreme-201...

Actually, I like that they don't deviate from the standard on that one. It makes the power supply easy to replace, especially considering all those places in the world where people have never heard of System76.

like someone else said, the page confirms this thing supports USB-C PD. but USB-C power delivery adds expensive complexity to the hardware that is not necessary otherwise

FWIW the USB-C port is power delivery compatible.

Just a guess, but charging by the old school barrel jacks requires next to no protocol support. You just need to provide the correct voltage, and supply enough current.

Whereas with USB-C, you need to speak USB-C before it'll charge.

EDIT: oh, and it gives you the ability to avoid potential security attack vectors.

I’ve wondered this with systems like my work-provided HP Elitebook as well. Best I can think of is that some customers may require the ability to charge a laptop via a port that doesn’t also double as a data port?

Given some of the crazy hardware security attacks we’ve seen over the years, I’m a lot more paranoid about plugging in a rando USB-C cable than plugging in a barrel connector. That said, knowing to look for tip polarity, voltage, and available amperage is a lot to ask of people. I wish we had a standardized power-only charger option.

Because it only has a single usb-c port. They probably want people to have the option of charging the laptop while also plugging in something over usb-c. Why they didn't just do two usb-c ports, I don't know. Maybe someone from System 76 can answer that.

You'll need to use the barrel charger for applying firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to support changing the battery even if it completely drained.

Backup? Higher current option?

No, I would _love_ to go back to 4:3. Maybe not for a laptop, but I desperately miss height. Except for very high end displays, we've spent a decade stuck at 1080 or fewer vertical pixels. Meanwhile way back in the early 2000s we had more vertical pixels (1600x1200).

No, I would also love a laptop with 3:2 or 16:10 screen. And a Ryzen 4000 APU.

Actually System76 might offer self manufactured laptops with AMD Ryzen in the future [1]. I hope they will consider a better display then. Currently they are basically rebranding Chinese laptops (like Clevo).

[1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=System76...

The display is my concern as well. However, for me, it's that there's no option for better than 1920*1080. I'd like a high dpi option. Everything else looks great.

A Lenovo E495 Ryzen 7 U3700 with 32GB RAM and an NVMe will set you back around $600-700 today. Actually more expensive now than it was several months ago, but I would expect these to be inexpensive used within a year. Zero hardware issues in NixOS or Ubuntu, USB-C charging, outputs to 2 external displays plus the internal without any additional fan noise.

I've got zero complaints, especially since this is not Lenovo's top business line.

You can purchase a USB3 to 1G ethernet adapter for $10.

VAIO SX14?

That's partially because System76 doesn't currently design and produce their laptops, they rebrand Clevos. This new Lemur Pro appears to be this model [1] so unfortunately it'll also have poor build quality. From System76's careers page and their posts about Thelio it seems like they'll be designing their own laptops soon, and based on the Thelio I'd bet they'll be much more solid.

[1] https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/b...

Yea, the build quality is the biggest area it's lacking. I have Lemur from 3 years ago or so (and they still look more or less the same) - and the body is very uninspiring chunky black plastic, and feels flimsy/flexy. The keyboard is fine I suppose, generic chiclet keys which I don't mind at all. But the trackpad is quite mediocre compared to any Macbook.

Yeah, the specs on system76 stuff looks nice, but they’ve always had fit and finish issues that are a turnoff.

I used to think the same, but I think it depends on where you are. Inside, or in fairly low light situations, matte screens are great.

However, as I'm currently working from a suburban house and am able to go outside, I've discovered the glossy screen of my 2013 MBP is actually more legible when the sun's up than a matte external monitor (Dell P2415Q), both set to maximum brightness.

Sure, there are way more reflections and I have to wear dark clothes, but if I use a light background I can see the text fairly well.

On my external display the light is so diffused that the contrast is terrible. Even if there are no reflections, text is so washed out it's much harder to read.

How the tables have turned.

It does though the barrel connection needs to be used for firmware updates. The Lemur Pro has additional circuitry to charge the battery even if it is dead.

When you're using the laptop's keyboard but a larger external monitor in front of you.

Thinkpads have had this ability for as long as I can remember.

just FYI you can change the battery on that mbp pretty easily

https://youtu.be/fupkPz55tUo

I used shoe laces. just be sure you get the right battery - I had to reorder mine because plug was actually shifted a little.

That is annoying, but if you really want to know, I suspect it's almost certainly 8GB.

That's what I've been reading about those a lot. I think they took the feedback seriously and packed this thing with a real whopper of a battery. I'm pretty excited by this development.

I got the ThinkPad E585 also with an AMD SOC. There were some difficulties with the new AMD hardware.

https://github.com/StellaArtuois/Installing_Linux_on_ThinkPa...

Yes.

They know the Watt-hour capacity of the battery (~70 Wh) and they now know how many watts each activity takes in steady state (W). What's the non-linearity? Does the power usage of those activities change with time, or does the integral capacity of the battery change?

Options like so exist: https://www.amazon.com/USB-Ethernet-Splitter-HUB-Network/dp/...

The ME and the FSP blobs have nothing to do with each other.

They sell high end Linux systems, and maintain the Ubuntu-based Pop!_OS Linux distribution. The Lemur Pro — and other Intel-only laptops — are running open source firmware developed by System76 in collaboration with Intel.

Who buys computers from System76? People that care about buying hardware that's guaranteed to work with Linux, from a company that supports Linux. That ranges from web developers to NASA.

720p is perfectly fine for a laptop camera.

So epic. They got lots of complaints of battery life in the earlier models, and that was the one thing keeping me from pulling the trigger. With this huge battery and these specs I will have a really hard time not buying this to replace my old Vaio.

I think the System76 crowd would pay extra to not have a TPM.