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0 pointsIll_ban_myself6y ago0 comments

I hope by the length of my next sentence I'll be worthy of some small part of the praise you're giving the Seattle Times here :-)

It seems to me that the only difference between an exit poll and a voluntary disclosure checkbox which, if utilized by a statistically significant portion of the electorate, could be leveraged by official government commissions to audit election results where online voting is offered is that one these options is in the price range of the national parties and not publicly disclosed and the other strikes fear into the heart of everyone I've spoken to involved in election process.

Voluntary disclosure doesn't have to be a slippery slope and I firmly believe can and will lead to more fair and equitable access to the voting process and greater participation if it enabled online voting to be audited.

No one believes that large numbers of people will be blackmailed into disclosing their vote and if this or discrimination happens at scale then make it explicitly illegal. For those who aren't subject to these factors and are willing to participate in a census it would completely change how elections are run for the better.

0 comments

11 comments · 2 top-level

Beldin6y ago· 5 in thread

Voluntary disclosure sounds as if it undoes the secret ballot.

Just a reminder: the secret ballot is secret to protect those, whose genuine vote would otherwise be manipulated (/forced/extorted/...)

Not every individual voter might need that level of protection for themselves.

But every individual voter requires this level of protection for the whole process.

Phrased differently: for some, anonymity in voting is nice. For others, it is necessary to get their genuine vote. For democracy to function, we need everyone's genuine vote.

Thus: we need voter anonimity that cannot be rescinded by the voter - nor by anyone else.

alasdair_6y ago

>Just a reminder: the secret ballot is secret to protect those, whose genuine vote would otherwise be manipulated (/forced/extorted/...)

For mail-in voting (which is how the majority of people in King County vote), what makes the ballot secret? Can someone be forced or extorted to fill in the ballot in front of their persecutor?

>For democracy to function, we need everyone's genuine vote.

I'd honestly like to see anonymous voting in the house and Senate. This would vastly reduce the influence of political parties. Yes, it means that it's harder for constituents to track what their representative actually does, but the way modern politics works, "what their representative actually does" is essentially vote the party line on almost every vote.

mjevans6y ago

Source: I vote in King County (of which Seattle is a member city and probably uses the same process given the same elections office).

The Mail In Ballot procedure here uses a double-envelope system.

The inner envelope has the vote (with a matching identifier tab pulled off). It is supposed to contain only the vote.

The other envelope contains the inner envelope and this envelope is marked with the address of the voter, and a legally binding contract (signed by the voter and/or representative witnesses if they are unable).

My belief is that the validation process for these ballots includes multiple stages and probably blinding, wherein, the outer envelope is authenticated as a registered voter and that it contains something likely to be a vote (there's a small viewing circle). This would then be stripped and the trusted inner envelope, still sealed, added to a tabulation bin. Said tabulation bin would then be counter later in an anonomized manor.

Ill_ban_myselfOP6y ago

Again, this assumes a slippery slope. Organ donors abound. Should we be allowed to redact it on our driver's licenses for fear that we might be judged by our bosses and neighbors or compelled to donate or that it reveals our religious beliefs?

When someone says, "America isn't ready for online voting." I hear, "The interests who already buy and aggregate enough information to have the results ahead of time want to stay 1 step ahead of regulators."

reaperducer6y ago

No one is going to pay you to tick the organ donor box, or threaten you or your family if you don't.

Both of those things have happened with voting in the past, which is why ballots are secret.

2 more replies

SamReidHughes6y ago

Keep in mind, democracy functioned in America for about a century without secret ballots.

specialist6y ago· 4 in thread

Forgive me, I don't know what you're advocating for here. I greatly appreciate that you're chewing on the policy, problem, tech.

For the USA, I no longer think polls are useful predictors, nor are exit polls useful audits or verification. For polling to work (be useful), like is done in Germany, requires the whole system to be designed as such.

Our gold standard is the Australian Ballot. Private voting, public counting. We weaken this system to extend the franchise, eg absentee ballots.

But the real kicker is our FPTP (winner takes all) election system. It's so brittle. The inevitable error rate intrinsic in any form of voting (casting ballots) coupled with durvergers law virtually ensures drama.

Said another way, my militant defense of the Australian Ballot, this recurring national spaz attack, would be mooted by switching to a more robust form of elections. Ranked choice and proportional representation have the most interest and support, though I prefer Approval Voting for a better balance of fairness and simplicity.

Back to your point about disclosure, if I follow you: I very much would like to see tech, POCs, research into time boxed privacy. Like maybe all election materials, including ballots, are released when an election is certified. Versus hidden and then destroyed a few weeks later. My motivation is to find other balances, equilibria, between people's privacy (and protection) against society's need for confidence in the results.

mjevans6y ago

I agree with proportional representation applied within a bounding area of authority and letting representation by __area__ and/or __area of interest__ be by decided by the vote rather than distracting (which is subject to jerry mandering).

I prefer the "Path Voting" method (which I have to google for with wikipedia path voting every time, since I can't remember how to spell the inventor's name). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method

"The Schulze method (/ˈʃʊltsə/) is an electoral system developed in 1997 by Markus Schulze that selects a single winner using votes that express preferences. The method can also be used to create a sorted list of winners. The Schulze method is also known as Schwartz Sequential dropping (SSD), cloneproof Schwartz sequential dropping (CSSD), the beatpath method, beatpath winner, path voting, and path winner."

ClayShentrup6y ago

http://scorevoting.net/rangeVcond.html

Ill_ban_myselfOP6y ago

From one side of your mouth you're demanding perfect privacy and from the other side I'm sure you'll tell me its necessary because of the laws in the US for voting procedure and policy to be bottom up starting with localities, then states, then federal elections.

I think we both know perfect privacy is cost prohibitive at the local and state levels and largely a talking point that ends with the listener assuming it is impossible to achieve online voting with perfect privacy in our lifetime.

If we can't afford to change the way people vote then why not change the way we measure it so its not so cost prohibitive?

Between exit polls, aggregate voter data held by the national parties, private and public data sources it is already possible to accurately predict the outcome of most elections.

Its already being used by national parties as the foundation for when and where they choose to challenge election results and allocate resources.

There is no such thing as a, "Secret Ballot" with modern analytics. There are just those who can afford to find out how you vote and those who can't.

Those who can't in today's world includes regulators and the government themselves.

specialist6y ago

Well then.

I am explicitly not shutting you down. I shared my views and why. I encouraged you to do the same.

For instance, one cheap and obvious way to improve uitilityof exit polling would be to implement compulsory voting.

Also, please work on a campaign. To the best of my knowledge, modern campaigns don't rely much on polling. Most effort is put into GOTV (voter identification and balloting chasing).

Edit: Oops. I'm not familiar with Republican campaigns. In my area, their GOTV is less potent and they rely far more on advertising. So they might still be more reliant on polling. It's a good question for me to follow up.

Opinion polls are still useful in other ways. Depending on who's paying. Sanity checks. Push polling. Message crafting. Talking points, a la Voted San Fran's Favorite Pho Restaurant. Feeding corporate media's horserace narrative. Policy groups trying to gather intel on both opponents and allies. Consultants fleecing noob candidates. Arm waving because old school operators expect it.

YMMV.

2 more replies

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0 comments

11 comments · 2 top-level

Beldin6y ago· 5 in thread

Voluntary disclosure sounds as if it undoes the secret ballot.

Just a reminder: the secret ballot is secret to protect those, whose genuine vote would otherwise be manipulated (/forced/extorted/...)

Not every individual voter might need that level of protection for themselves.

But every individual voter requires this level of protection for the whole process.

Phrased differently: for some, anonymity in voting is nice. For others, it is necessary to get their genuine vote. For democracy to function, we need everyone's genuine vote.

Thus: we need voter anonimity that cannot be rescinded by the voter - nor by anyone else.

alasdair_6y ago

>Just a reminder: the secret ballot is secret to protect those, whose genuine vote would otherwise be manipulated (/forced/extorted/...)

For mail-in voting (which is how the majority of people in King County vote), what makes the ballot secret? Can someone be forced or extorted to fill in the ballot in front of their persecutor?

>For democracy to function, we need everyone's genuine vote.

mjevans6y ago

Source: I vote in King County (of which Seattle is a member city and probably uses the same process given the same elections office).

The Mail In Ballot procedure here uses a double-envelope system.

The inner envelope has the vote (with a matching identifier tab pulled off). It is supposed to contain only the vote.

Ill_ban_myselfOP6y ago

reaperducer6y ago

No one is going to pay you to tick the organ donor box, or threaten you or your family if you don't.

Both of those things have happened with voting in the past, which is why ballots are secret.

2 more replies

SamReidHughes6y ago

Keep in mind, democracy functioned in America for about a century without secret ballots.

specialist6y ago· 4 in thread

Forgive me, I don't know what you're advocating for here. I greatly appreciate that you're chewing on the policy, problem, tech.

Our gold standard is the Australian Ballot. Private voting, public counting. We weaken this system to extend the franchise, eg absentee ballots.

mjevans6y ago

ClayShentrup6y ago

http://scorevoting.net/rangeVcond.html

Ill_ban_myselfOP6y ago

If we can't afford to change the way people vote then why not change the way we measure it so its not so cost prohibitive?

Between exit polls, aggregate voter data held by the national parties, private and public data sources it is already possible to accurately predict the outcome of most elections.

Its already being used by national parties as the foundation for when and where they choose to challenge election results and allocate resources.

There is no such thing as a, "Secret Ballot" with modern analytics. There are just those who can afford to find out how you vote and those who can't.

Those who can't in today's world includes regulators and the government themselves.

specialist6y ago

Well then.

I am explicitly not shutting you down. I shared my views and why. I encouraged you to do the same.

For instance, one cheap and obvious way to improve uitilityof exit polling would be to implement compulsory voting.

Also, please work on a campaign. To the best of my knowledge, modern campaigns don't rely much on polling. Most effort is put into GOTV (voter identification and balloting chasing).

YMMV.

2 more replies

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse