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0 pointsBoorishBears6y ago0 comments

You're seriously overselling how much value non-Java JVM based languages are bringing to the ecosystem...

Java is still the only JVM language with more than 1% usage on any industry ranking of languages.

All non-JVM languages combined represent 10% of JVM usage

https://snyk.io/blog/jvm-ecosystem-report-2018/

As someone who writes a lot of Kotlin for a living, something like 80% of the improvements Kotlin brings that I use on a day to day basis are features to give it the same level of ergonomics as C#... like reified generics...

And your comment that .NET is a de-factor one-language platform makes it sound like you've never heard of the DLR (or F# and VB for that matter)

To me the biggest reason DLR languages are not as big as things like JRuby is C# is a pretty damn good language. There's much less value is trying to cobble together existing languages and subpar runtimes when the defacto language is modern, developing at a steady clip, and "delightful" to use.

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6 comments · 2 top-level

pron6y ago· 2 in thread

Those under-10% Java market-share languages would make up about half of .NET's. Everything looks small in comparison when you're as incredibly successful as Java (some of those languages you find so insignificant are about as big as Go, much bigger than Rust, and probably 10x as big as Elixir or Haskell). I just find it funny to argue that second-tier products (in terms of popularity) know about "value" more than leading ones. And none of that changes Java's focus and strategy as a polyglot runtime. Java is already on its way to be the best Python runtime, and it's getting competitive with the very top JS runtimes out there.

You can argue over language preference, as some programmers do, all you like. I have very different preferences from yours, and many other programmers have preferences different from the both of us and that's OK. You say you prefer programming Java in Kotlin rather than the Java language? That's pefectly fine and part of Java's strategy for the past 20 years. The Java language is intentionally conservative because it seems many more people like conservative, slow-changing languages, but the Java platform will make sure that it runs Clojure, Kotlin, JS, Python and Java language programs as well as anything.

BoorishBearsOP6y ago

Ugh, I started reading this before I realized it's the same person who thinks C#'s under the hood improvements in the last decade can be handwaved away.

Yeah, 10% of Java's market share is not larger than C#

https://stackify.com/popular-programming-languages-2018/

If it was, those languages would be showing up on Github's survey above C# as well, they all consider Java independently not as a combination of all JVM languages.

You've contorted this conversation so ridiculously out of shape then beating the horse you laid on it.

My original comment was a rebuttal to this comment:

> While Java's slow and cautious evolution frustrates developers, it still arguably demonstrates longer-term thinking than the constant accrual of features in its contemporaries such as JavaScript and C#.

If you read the whole comment, it was not about the JVM, it was not about confusing this issue with "oh yeah well the language sucks but that's so you can run Python on it's runtime".

No idea why you are so insistent on making it about anything but the actual language called Java, not Clojure or Kotlin or Js or Python.

pron6y ago

Because Java is both the name of a platform and the name of a language for that platform, and from its original design, the platform has been the main focus. Clojure, Kotlin and the Java language are all Java platform languages. And you'll just have to come to terms with the objective fact that other developers might disagree with your subjective language preferences. In fact, statistics would suggest that most of them would (as they would with any of us; I don't think a majority of developers would agree with any single language preference ranking). Developers know that most other developers disagree with them over language preference. That's why I'd rather speak of the platform than the language. Clearly we have different language preferences -- as most developers do -- and there is no right and wrong there.

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pjmlp6y ago· 2 in thread

So when are we getting F# designers in Visual Studio?

BoorishBearsOP6y ago

Are you confusing IDE support with language support on a given runtime?

pjmlp6y ago

If you want me to talk about language support on a given runtime instead, try to use F# on .NET Native, or VB.NET on Blazor.

1 more reply

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6 comments · 2 top-level

pron6y ago· 2 in thread

BoorishBearsOP6y ago

Ugh, I started reading this before I realized it's the same person who thinks C#'s under the hood improvements in the last decade can be handwaved away.

Yeah, 10% of Java's market share is not larger than C#

https://stackify.com/popular-programming-languages-2018/

If it was, those languages would be showing up on Github's survey above C# as well, they all consider Java independently not as a combination of all JVM languages.

You've contorted this conversation so ridiculously out of shape then beating the horse you laid on it.

My original comment was a rebuttal to this comment:

If you read the whole comment, it was not about the JVM, it was not about confusing this issue with "oh yeah well the language sucks but that's so you can run Python on it's runtime".

No idea why you are so insistent on making it about anything but the actual language called Java, not Clojure or Kotlin or Js or Python.

pron6y ago

1 more reply

pjmlp6y ago· 2 in thread

So when are we getting F# designers in Visual Studio?

BoorishBearsOP6y ago

Are you confusing IDE support with language support on a given runtime?

pjmlp6y ago

If you want me to talk about language support on a given runtime instead, try to use F# on .NET Native, or VB.NET on Blazor.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse