Can't speak for the Google store, but as a consumer, I definitely trust Apple's apps more than random developers' apps. So in Apple's case, I always appreciate when they provide another service/app that I can use, because their values on privacy aligns with mine and they have built up a trust relationship with me.
Couldn't you still have that without banning off-store apps?
They're at least a little good for consumers. Look at the Windows software world of the early internet era for what can happen with a completely unrestricted software installation paradigm. As annoying as it is to be an app developer with a good app banned for silly reasons, remember the developers used to be pushing straight up malware along with their apps.
At least now you know that your music purchase isn't installing a rootkit.
Could it be better? Yeah. But it could also be a lot worse.
Let's say this guy could go the alternative route and publish elsewhere. He'd still have a problem because most of the traffic goes through the Appstore, not some other venue.
(1) For example, the store keeping an absurd share of app revenues. About 30%, isn't it?
(BTW, you're looking for lichess)
We allow people to drink, gamble, join ponzi schemes or self-harm. The non-negotiable nannying around app stores seems infantilizing in comparison.
To answer your question, yes the risks are real. But so is life.
Serves them right.
Just in 2018, the App Store paid developers $34 billion from their sales.
https://fortune.com/2019/01/28/apple-app-store-developer-ear...
Apple is FLOODED with copycat crap apps - 10 different names etc etc. Seriously, the play store used to have lots more of these - maybe now cleaned up. But saying that apple needs to encourage this crap is silly. This is what was killing the play store.
The guy complaining here has his "privacy policy" as follows: https://github.com/glushchenko/fsnotes
When someone who doesn't know git or github tries to read his privacy policy they have no chance.
Why it this all apple's fault? I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a privacy policy.
One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to have someone give them some training on what sections of app review guidelines they are breaking. Do 30 minutes to prep, spend an hour talking with them, then 30 minutes to wrap up.
Someone has this service - seriously - consider paying for some guidance if you don't want to read through the lengthy Apple stuff yourself.
If Walmart offered a “seller’s course” where you could go and learn how to do these things nobody would bat an eyelid. They’d probably be praised for it.
Here’s where my analogy falls apart, of course. Walmart still won’t list for sale the crappy useless thing that you made at home. Apple will.
It’s almost like physical retail and software are different. Crazy!
I guess I'm a bit biased since I use it regularly, and I really like the business model of an open-source application that is available for free, and is purchasable if you wish to support the creator.
It seems like you're ignoring the fact that an actual person (and presumably, fellow developer, I am assuming you are also a dev) who provides a useful tool for free and spends a considerable amount of time and energy on it is going to read your posts that just shit on him and his work with no sympathy.
Also, please keep in mind that $500 is a LOT of money for many developers, both inside and outside of the United States.
It follows a pattern of absolutely over the top language around companies like apple.
Apple's approach has resulted in 2 million apps+ in the app store. I'm not sure given their crappy interface I could find or use even a fraction of them.
The iOS version links to that page, but the mac appstore listing [0] links to a different website [1] with an actual privacy policy.
Apple didn't say this was a privacy policy issue, why do you think it is?
> One fix, developers should be able to pay $500 to [...]
So by default if Apple rejects you and refuses to give a reason, you should have the "opportunity" of paying them $500 so Apple tells you what Apple already knows? What a deal!
If you work in this type of space, your time becomes precious and there can be extreme mismatches between what a developer etc thinks is owed to them and what they have paid for.
I'm pointing out that the developer is not following even basic guidelines. It seems possible that either this or another guideline is not being followed?
And then that's it, for months.
That is DEFINITELY Apple's fault.
That you get away with not doing it for any amount of time is not an excuse. It's Apple's sandbox; play by their rules, or play elsewhere.
Apple is literally in the top 10 largest companies in the world for several different measures. If they're achieving those numbers by giving the ole F'you to developers, that is a problem. Getting locked out of a distribution platform for 1~3 months, in today's world can cost thousands or even tens of thousands in sales even for small developers.
There are no other options for Apple. You can't install untrusted apps like you can on Android (which is still a huge pain and which no one does).
I almost feel like someone like the EU or California needs to mandate that both Apple and Google allow individual users to add 3rd party repositories in the same way you can on most Linux package managers. They can throw up a big warning about device security if they want, but unless there's regulations around it, there's no way for the average use to actually have control over his or her device.
I feel like comments like this always assume that it's a given that the average user having full control over their devices is a goal that the majority of people agree with and are interested in pursuing.
Unless it can be demonstrated that the lack of control over their smartphones is seriously, tangibly affecting their lives in ways that aren't just ideological, the public at large (and lawmakers by extension) are going to keep right on not really giving a shit if they have Linux-like package management or not.
If you're running a business, that is very much trivial. I just paid my bank $40 to send a wire transfer to a vendor. It costs $39.99 per month to be able to make apps for Amazon sellers. Out here in the real world stuff and services cost money.
It's hard to get permits, so sellers are depending on that one permit for at least 20% of their revenue, even more if they deal with the same municipality in different villages. In theory they could go to other markets, but in practice it can take years to get a good position elsewhere. Too long to survive.
If the local municipality decided to ban a seller, for reasons unknown, the seller can get a judge involved who will quickly say if the seller was legitimately banned.
Justice prevails.
With the App store? Not so much. The arrogance of the tech giants knows no bounds, their legal budgets are endless and judges will never fully grasp the similiarities between the online and offline world.
App developers are no different from market sellers, they are just dealing with the worst marketplace model ever.
I am not even an App developer, but I really think this should change. It's just not healthy for an economy to have a gatekeeper that has the power to just bankrupt a developer, be it accidentally or on purpose.
Banning accounts without detailed reasoning while "investigating" for a long period of time should be seen as criminal behavior.
C'mon. A local municipality is a government, which is supposed to (and usually legally obligated to) act for the betterment of its constituents. Apple is a private company and, thus, not bound by any such obligation.
I advise adjusting your expectations to the worst case scenario. When we deploy to the App Store, we budget a significant lead time so we are able to resubmit without blowing our deadline. And we are prepared to fix things we didn’t expect to, or think we have to. In exchange, users are more willing to trust an app we deploy and download it.
At Google, since it's all bots, a random algorithm change can remove your app from the store overnight. With Apple, if you get through the review process you're usually safe. Not to mention random bans by association (e.g. if a developer at your company has previously had a banned account, then the company account could be banned due to association with this developer - there are a few horror stories out there about this).
This isn't a "we won't approve your app because it's not following the app guidelines" rejection or an app stuck in review purgatory. (I once had an Apple TV app stuck in review for 10 weeks before it magically was approved with no changes from me.) This is a "your account did something it shouldn't have done" flag. The whole account is suspended for an alleged infraction of "App Store Review Guidelines’ Developer Code of Conduct". Did your account do contract work on other "spammy" apps or similar? Even if you worked on completely different apps, it's not unprecedented for Apple to just blow the whole account up if it's in any way tied.
Edit to add Code of Conduct:
5.6 Developer Code of Conduct Please treat everyone with respect, whether in your responses to App Store reviews, customer support requests, or when communicating with Apple, including your responses in Resolution Center. Do not engage in harassment of any kind, discriminatory practices, intimidation, bullying, and don’t encourage others to engage in any of the above. Customer trust is the cornerstone of the App Store’s success. Apps should never prey on users or attempt to rip-off customers, trick them into making unwanted purchases, force them to share unnecessary data, raise prices in a tricky manner, charge for features or content that are not delivered, or engage in any other manipulative practices within or outside of the app.
This is a good question. I've seen the stories before where a person who had normal apps did contract work on scam apps in the same account, and then wonder why their account ends up in review.
This makes sense in a realpolitik way - Apple has a monopoly on mobile app profits. Where else can you go? Apple is not trying to smash small devs, but they also know they have very little pressure to provide great service to small devs.
Don't most companies provide better response time to larger customers?
Frankly I do not understand why do people submit to this kind of stewardship
"I am lucky that so far I have managed to avoid all this walled garden madness"
"All of my products..."
"...desktop based or browser based and servers are hosted on my own/rented hardware"
This is like a professional chef saying they don't understand why everyone does not make their own souffles. People want the same services you want, but are not software developers. I have to assume you're being very facetious?
I'm looking forward to the day these oversized bully companies become irrelevant. That day will come. The amount of innovation and progress they're holding back from humanity is criminal. Can't last.
Companies exploit this for profit in many unethical ways. For instance Apple didn't voluntarily print new marketing material for the EU they advertised a one year warranty illegally instead to upsell Apple Care and went to court multiple times for it. Steam had to be sued to provide refunds. Google had to be sued to refund $75 million in funds they claimed they were returning because of fraud.
Business as usual is basically a dark pattern - do whatever they want because it will take years if ever for anyone to challenge them meanwhile there is zero oversight.
https://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/123207/apple-is-fo...
https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-australia-fine-12...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-to-refund-advertisers-af...
Please. They're accountable to their one billion plus customers who depend on them to keep as much riff raff as possible out of the app store. They're likewise accountable to the developers who created this market.
Apple's process is imperfect. They certainly raise a lot of false negatives. The requirements are sometimes onerous and nebulous. However, the alternative is knowingly peddling hot garbage and harming their customers, partners, third-party developers, and thus, their own business.
Telling the exacts details makes it easier to game the system.
"Help! My compact got stuck in the snow"
"Buy a 4x4 and replace the wheels with tracks, that will get you going anywhere"
That said, I think they should include at least some hint in their communications about why they're reviewing you, particularly if it's going to take as long as it looks like this one has.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
REPEAT
We have suspended your AdSense account due to our ML system flagging you for fraud (yes, we trust it) and we can't tell you why (no, we really can't tell you even if we wanted to).
UNTIL customer goes away or the case gets enough upvotes on HN to be a PR problem
Amazon:
REPEAT
We have removed your seller privileges due to a change in our policies we didn't communicate to anyone and you likely selling a brand that was recently put on a gated list or our ML system is thinking you are a fraud because you logged in in private mode.
UNTIL customer goes away or hires a consulting company with ties to Amazon managers
Apple:
REPEAT
We have placed your account under review with opaque "policy violation" but we won't tell you why (like Google we can't tell as some of our ML models have good day flagging you for reasons known only to them). Or you might have tweeted something 5 years ago against a company we just acquired. Well, bad luck.
UNTIL developer goes away
FAANG customer service in a nutshell.
- Apple does X against small / indie developer! I know it makes for a great headline.
- Indie developer did no harm, rights a heart tugger of a blog post.
- Post reaches front of HN, reddit, etc ...
- Further digging shows not only did the indie developer not follow guidelines, they blatantly ignored them.
- Indie dev is exposed for not following Apple guidelines.
The way the issue is written makes it seem a considerable amount of information is being hidden. I'm going to wait until the dust settles before I take any sides.
Some recent examples:
- the keyboard issues, when first reports appeared people were accused they were using them wrong, eating and drinking while typing
- the videos with the Macbook catching fire, people were accusing that person that it was fake or he used it wrong
I would conclude that Apple can make mistakes and I would stop accusing people of using things wrong.
Remember when all the Microsofties were gloating about how it was never gonna happen to them?
Pepperidge farm remembers…
Did said developer ask why his account is currently under investigation? Hard to determine since he only posted what Apple sent back.
Personally I have 5 Apps on the AppStore, have for many years, they are small bs apps that don't have much to them (stuff like a Migraine Tracker, before HealthKit was a thing, etc..). I've never ran into an issue with my apps being reviewed. Yes, some have taken awhile, Apple is flooded with requests and they've increased requirements (etc) which only makes things take longer.
But since this really isn't about the Application being submitted, more so about the user's account under investigation. I would venture to say, there's something else going on that said Developer isn't posting.
Your $99 developer subscription means nothing if you violate their terms. All that $99 does is weed out even more potential malicious developers (as most won't bother with paying $99 and will just go to Android).
With that being said, the amount of developers submitting apps for review, Apple should find some way to review apps faster, especially since it is something we pay for. But there are a lot of developers trying to be sneaky and make simple applications for more complicated than they should be to sneak in code to either collect or steal data they have no business with. The more developers that do this, the more extensive review process Apple will have, the longer the wait times will be.
I also don't see how this is related to apple "killing" indie devs; there are tons of notes apps in the store, this one is probably just breaking some guideline.
[0] https://chrissardegna.com/blog/posts/get-an-app-approved/
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/why-did-a...
I always end up enforcing my theory that some companies are becoming too powerful.
I've had similar experiences as a seller on eBay: when a buyer reports you they react in favour of the buyer because buyers make their business model work.
I suspect it's the same here, that Apple have received some sort of complaint about the iOS app (given that the macOS app is unaffected) and the automatic "guilty until proven innocent" system has been activated. And sadly the only thing to do is wait for it to finish. It could be something like waiting 60 or 90 days without any further complaints of the same nature. You could hope for intervention by a sympathetic App Store employee or rep, but I don't know how likely that will be.
To add insult to injury there is also the fact that this is an open source app and dishonest people are cloning it and selling it, and Apple are slow to take them down if they do at all.
Why in earth we need to pay 100 dollars to keep our Dev license and keep apps in store ?
Anyway, android app development has less sandbox feeling at the moment..
