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0 pointsPavlovsCat6y ago0 comments

Quoting WP:

> The United States Department of Justice defines sexual assault as "any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient.

Saying Minsky might not have realized she was coerced, in context of a 17 year old on a private island having sex with a 73 year old, is just nonsense. If (!) he did anything at all (and so far, there's only a claim that Minsky turned her down, plus no claim he had sex with her, AFAIK), that'd be sexual assault just by merit of the power differential.

If RMS doesn't understand that at age 66, that's tough luck, and splitting hairs about the arbitraryness of the age of consent or territorial jurisdictions, then talking about how it was all misunderstood and mischaracterized, because he was also, additionally falsely accused of defending Epstein, doesn't make it seem like he learned anything, at all.

Last, but not least: Not knowing someone's age because one didn't ask for ID isn't ignorance, it's not wanting to know. Likewise, a highly intelligent man thinking "oh my, this young lady who also happens to vacation here is really into me, what a lucky bastard I am" and any variation thereof doesn't pass the smell test. Even having attempted that argument was insulting to anyone's intelligence, and it's insulting to victims of such things.

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freetime26y ago

> Likewise, a highly intelligent man thinking "oh my, this young lady who also happens to vacation here is really into me, what a lucky bastard I am" and any variation thereof doesn't pass the smell test.

I didn’t interpret Stallman’s comment to mean this at all. But rather that Minsky assumed that the victim was engaging in prostitution and willfully engaging in sexual acts in exchange for money.

With regards to not knowing someone’s age, there are a few plausible scenarios that come to mind. The victim could have lied to Minsky. Epstein could have lied to Minsky. She could have presented a fake ID, etc.

I think you making a lot of assumptions here that just aren’t borne out by the evidence available. Assumptions about what Stallman thinks or has implied, and assumptions about the nature of the accusations against Minsky. As far as I am aware we don’t know where or when it allegedly happened, the victim’s age at the time, or the details of how it was initiated. Some of the details you are assuming about the victim being 17 or the encounter having occurred on a private island seem to have been pieced together in a highly speculative verge article or from internet commentators (if you have quality sources of information that report otherwise please share). Stallman may not have had these details in mind or may have had a different set of assumptions when he wrote what he did.

I for one would like to see Stallman elaborate on some of his positions to better answer these questions. Not silenced.

PavlovsCatOP6y ago

> I didn’t interpret Stallman’s comment to mean this at all.

It does though, just by leaving room for Minsky just thinking she might be "willing", "not coerced".

> As far as I am aware we don’t know where or when it allegedly happened

On that private island during an AI conference held by Epstein when Minsky was 73 and the girl 17.

Though AFAIK there isn't a claim Minsky did anything, just that the girl was "directed to have sex" with VIP, including Minsky. One person stated Minsky turned her down, and she AFAIK didn't claim Minsky even touched her.

But that "something happened" is the hypothetical scenario within which Stallman argued on that mailing list. It's not my "assumption" at all.

> Some of the details you are assuming about the victim being 17 or the encounter having occurred on a private island seem to have been pieced together in a highly speculative verge article or from internet commentators (if you have quality sources of information that report otherwise please share)

Why not just ask right away, instead of after me telling me about my assumptions and sources. The first thing I heard about this was a link to the mailing list, the rest from searches. I never even read the Verge article, no need. I know some articles falsely claim RMS defended Epstein, but that's also not from reading them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky#Allegation_of_ch...

> In 2016, Virginia Giuffre named Minsky as one of the people she was "directed to have sex" with on Jeffrey Epstein's private island while she was 17 years old [5 sources]. It is alleged to have happened in 2002, during an AI conference hosted by Epstein at his compound in the US Virgin Islands. [1 source]

See the sources in the footnotes of that article. If you disagree, don't just do it here, correct the WP article. I for one made sure I know what I'm talking about before I even started to do so. And Stallman isn't being silenced, either, he simply doesn't have a leg to stand on here.

freetime26y ago

Those citations in the Wikipedia page reference a deposition given by the victim many years after the alleged crimes occurred. When asked where she went to have sex with Minsky she answers “I believe it was” Epstein’s private island. That is not a strong statement of fact. She is using language which implies there is a possibility it may have happened elsewhere.

When asked when it happened, she answers “I don’t know”. This is why I question whether she was really 17 at the time.

There is a flight record that shows Minsky and the victim were together on the same flight, when the victim was 17 years old. But there is nothing that links that flight as occurring at the same time that the victim was directed to have sex with Minksy. Given that the victim was employed by Epstein for years, and reports that she basically traveled everywhere with him at the time, it's entirely plausible that they were two separate events. The reporting that links that flight with the victim's deposition is entirely speculative.

This is my understanding of the available evidence. But it is entirely possible I am missing something. If you think so, please share.

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freetime26y ago

I didn’t interpret Stallman’s comment to mean this at all. But rather that Minsky assumed that the victim was engaging in prostitution and willfully engaging in sexual acts in exchange for money.

I for one would like to see Stallman elaborate on some of his positions to better answer these questions. Not silenced.

PavlovsCatOP6y ago

> I didn’t interpret Stallman’s comment to mean this at all.

It does though, just by leaving room for Minsky just thinking she might be "willing", "not coerced".

> As far as I am aware we don’t know where or when it allegedly happened

On that private island during an AI conference held by Epstein when Minsky was 73 and the girl 17.

But that "something happened" is the hypothetical scenario within which Stallman argued on that mailing list. It's not my "assumption" at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky#Allegation_of_ch...

freetime26y ago

When asked when it happened, she answers “I don’t know”. This is why I question whether she was really 17 at the time.

This is my understanding of the available evidence. But it is entirely possible I am missing something. If you think so, please share.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse