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0 pointsbayesian_horse6y ago0 comments

In reality there is a large international consensus that Iran must not get nukes, and that such weapons would be an existential threat to Israel. The Israelis definitely see it that way, and it's hard to blame them. The question of who is the aggressor is pretty muddled because Iran has threatened to annihilate Israel and is attacking all sorts country's assets, territory or people all the time anyway.

Deterrence is a nice idea. When the opponent is rational, and the weapons in question are not likely to depopulate the region. The Mullahs in Iran can not be counted on to be rational actors. They also can't be counted on to keep in power.

I'd have much preferred the old solution of delaying their nuclear breakout, all the while their prosperity and development reaches a point where the Mullahs lose their power.

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cf141q53256y ago· 2 in thread

>In reality there is a large international consensus that Iran must not get nukes

As long as its not based on a resolution of the UN security council that means nothing. Might makes right isnt part of international law of war. Just because we have actors who cant be held responsible for their illegal behavior at the moment doesnt mean we should just ignore international law altogether. Starting a war of aggression is still wrong and voters shouldnt be complicit in such actions by authorizing politicians to do so. Our continuous failure to do so in democracys sets an absolute horrible precedent, in which the voting population of a country is responsible for warcrimes. Might I remind everyone that that was the pretext for atrocities like the British punitive bombardments of German cities during WW2 or, since we had the anniversary last week, al Quaidas pretext for 9/11?

Ignoring international law sets a horrible precedent. If your side isnt adhering to it, the opposite side will neither. This warmongering risks yet again the few achievements we as humanity have made in the last century. I myself really dont want to see a future where i have to worry about state sponsored bio terrorism in response to a neocolonial might is right approach of my government.

bayesian_horseOP6y ago

Even a resolution of the UN security council means nothing.

I wasn't talking about international law. Israel is willing to go to the mat on this, and apparently convinced this is a life-or-death issue. A lot of other countries, including the only superpower, NATO and the EU agree or at the very least don't want to let Israel be destroyed if Israel chose to stop Iran's nuclear program. As far as international consensus goes, that's pretty strong.

"Aggression" is quite an arbitrary definition. Iran has threatened Israel with annihilation for decades, and occasionally they tried. They do/did have a nuclear program, they certainly have chemical weapons. They keep attacking shipping and causing further armed conflict around the region...

"International Law", which today mainly consists of Russia and China sabotaging everyone else, is not going to stop Israel from defending itself.

cf141q53256y ago

>I wasn't talking about international law.

I know, I was. I dont care much for the semantics of how warcrimes are tried to be painted as "the right thing to do".

> War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

If you forgo international law in favor of might is right what you do is cultivating terrorism as the victims get radicalized and have no other way to left to respond. And thats not a new insight. Al Quaida was rather vocal about drone strikes and the atrocities in Abu-Ghuraib and Guantanamo being the best recruitment tools they could have ever asked for. And lets also not forget that the war on terror only recently cumulated into the emergence of ISIS, with the rank and file of Saddams dismantled army being there for the creation. People cant be so thick that they believe the phrase "They hate us for our Freedom". "They" hate us for invading their countries with our politicians and soldiers acting with impunity. I mean the US even sanctioned the ICC for gods sake. All those "necessary evils" breaking international law are only making the situation worse.

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