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0 pointsjacobsenscott6y ago0 comments

Likely in that other industry the engineer built 100+ other basically identical items that are two or three orders of magnitude less complex and where all the costs and techniques are pretty well known.

Also, those mature industries routinely overrun by millions of dollars and months or years, event though they are dealing with a fraction of the complexity and the costs and techniques are well known.

Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries", on top of astronomically complex systems, and estimate it with an accuracy of 5 to 10 days and a few thousand dollars.

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14 comments · 5 top-level

kjsthree6y ago· 4 in thread

> Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries"

I have a feeling that some SpaceX engineers would have something to say about this after one of their rockets lands on a floating barge.

shkkmo6y ago

> I have a feeling that some SpaceX engineers would have something to say about this after one of their rockets lands on a floating barge.

That is because you are ignoring/left out the critical last part of the phrase you quoted: "and estimate it with an accuracy of 5 to 10 days and a few thousand dollars."

This is particularly relevant because this is a direct response to the following:

> We can't even accurately estimate the cost of a complex project given our choice of tools, let alone talk about costs and ROI with different toolchains for the same projects.

jacobsenscottOP6y ago

Software landed the rocket on on a floating barge. The hardware is just holes for hot gas to come out.

newen6y ago

It's especially hilarious because he is comparing projects done by bootcamp graduates to projects done by highly trained PhDs. Some people just don't have a clue about the massive difference involved in webdev type projects and complex engineering projects.

lexs6y ago

Some McDonnell Douglas DC-X engineers would probably have something to say about your comment too.

pjmlp6y ago· 3 in thread

90% of Web applications are database frontends.

What they do to the end user might be different, how the pieces come together, it is always the same, unless one is doing curriculum driven development.

collyw6y ago

I wish we could get away from the fashion show in this industry. Currently we have a React frontend, which just adds extra complexity for no real benefit. But its fashionable.

eropple6y ago

React (and other SPAs) may be fashionable, but I generally contend that--when written well or even passably, which obviously requires an asterisk lest the Scotsmen come by but I don't think is a very high bar--if nothing else it requires developers to treat a web application as a client of an API rather than tightly integrating it. It enforces a level of separation of concerns that, IME, tends to encourage loose coupling and better design.

Forget everything about responsiveness or whatever (which I find way more valuable than the tradeoffs one makes)--the lack of tight coupling is the real win of React and similar. I mean, if you'd like you can pretty easily build a server-side React app with NextJS and still get a lot of these benefits while using React purely as a pretty-dang-good templating language.

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jacobsenscottOP6y ago

90% of apps use databases, but that doesn't mean they are just database frontends. If you zoom in there is always specialized domain logic that is custom to that app. If there isn't it shouldn't have been built.

CapricornNoble6y ago· 2 in thread

>>>>Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries"

Anyone engineering hypersonic missiles would easily dispute that.[1] Or submarine-capable quantum communication systems.[2] [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/magazine/hypersonic-missi... [2]https://www.realcleardefense.com/2017/11/04/quantum_communic...

jacobsenscottOP6y ago

There are occasionally novel engineering projects. These will be millions of dollars and years over budget, and then will fail. All their "mature industry standards and procedures and certifications" wont' save them.

CapricornNoble6y ago

It's unwise to extrapolate the US defense industry's procurement problems onto the Russians and Chinese. There's reasonable evidence to suggest the Russian Kinzhal and Zircon hypersonic missiles are already Working As Designed, or fairly close to it.[1][2]

[1]https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon

Xelbair6y ago

>Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries", on top of astronomically complex systems, and estimate it with an accuracy of 5 to 10 days and a few thousand dollars.

You are seriously overestimating complexity and novelty of most software development, while underestimating engineering in other industries. I work currently as software developer and previously in a branch of a civil engineering.

Do you seriously think that other engineering disciplines to not have those small little problems that plague us all the time in software development? They do, but they can offer their solutions based on data, not just whim. They do also have codified standards, and guidelines and certification exams.

On the other hand software development is relatively new discipline - other fields had hundred of years to mature.

EDIT: and they are catching up with rapid prototyping - it is getting cheaper and faster.

saiya-jin6y ago

Yeah, I used to hold similar naive views fresh out of school. Reality is, at least 98% of the software out there is just redoing what has been done, copy paste for slightly different purposes, integrating libs in slightly different ways.

But maybe its hard to admit it, lower down your ego and be a bit humble. Yes, software development is a creative work, but so are all other engineering branches. And yes, we have massive issues with code, process and people quality across whole business.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

14 comments · 5 top-level

kjsthree6y ago· 4 in thread

> Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries"

I have a feeling that some SpaceX engineers would have something to say about this after one of their rockets lands on a floating barge.

shkkmo6y ago

> I have a feeling that some SpaceX engineers would have something to say about this after one of their rockets lands on a floating barge.

That is because you are ignoring/left out the critical last part of the phrase you quoted: "and estimate it with an accuracy of 5 to 10 days and a few thousand dollars."

This is particularly relevant because this is a direct response to the following:

> We can't even accurately estimate the cost of a complex project given our choice of tools, let alone talk about costs and ROI with different toolchains for the same projects.

jacobsenscottOP6y ago

Software landed the rocket on on a floating barge. The hardware is just holes for hot gas to come out.

newen6y ago

lexs6y ago

Some McDonnell Douglas DC-X engineers would probably have something to say about your comment too.

pjmlp6y ago· 3 in thread

90% of Web applications are database frontends.

What they do to the end user might be different, how the pieces come together, it is always the same, unless one is doing curriculum driven development.

collyw6y ago

I wish we could get away from the fashion show in this industry. Currently we have a React frontend, which just adds extra complexity for no real benefit. But its fashionable.

eropple6y ago

2 more replies

jacobsenscottOP6y ago

CapricornNoble6y ago· 2 in thread

>>>>Software is the only industry where you are asked to build systems that have never been built before but that are more complex than anything ever built in the history of "mature industries"

jacobsenscottOP6y ago

CapricornNoble6y ago

[1]https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon

Xelbair6y ago

On the other hand software development is relatively new discipline - other fields had hundred of years to mature.

EDIT: and they are catching up with rapid prototyping - it is getting cheaper and faster.

saiya-jin6y ago

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse