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0 pointsdosy7y ago0 comments

Right, I think the article was saying development is GDP stagnation but increasing quality nonetheless, does that about match your understanding of it?

I still can't really imagine the other scenario because when I see efficiency gains I think they will lead to growth and more energy usage. Examples like "increasing CPU power should have led to faster software, but instead it lead to slower languages and larger software". Same for memory and bandwidth. Our websites keep expanding to fill the next generation of network capacity.

So the gains from efficiency are quickly consumed by increasing growth and energy use. Maybe you could help me imagine some that are not like that? I'd like that.

It's easier for me to imagine the examples like in the article (more fancy dessert, same ingredients) that are there classed as development, distinct from growth. But growth as defined there, with static energy, I can't imagine right now.

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kgwgk7y ago· 2 in thread

> I think the article was saying development is GDP stagnation but increasing quality nonetheless

I don't know what the article is trying to say, really. It talks about "improving the quality of life" but I'm not sure if that includes factors that are already considered in GDP calculations (https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/papers/P2006-6_0.pdf) or it's about immaterial quality of life improvements (more hapiness or whatever).

> But growth as defined there, with static energy, I can't imagine right now.

Say you have a factory producing 1000 widgets per day and you improve the efficiency of the process and now you produce 1100 widgets per day using the same quantities of labour, raw materials and energy. Don't you agree that this is growth?

dosyOP7y ago

Cool link, thanks I'll read it.

I'm not actually sure right now. Somehow I think that if you make those extra widgets without using more energy, then the extra people who buy and use those extra widgets will end up using more energy in doing so, and their extra purchase and use will, however incrementally, grow the economy as a whole a tiny bit, which will use that much extra energy.

So if it's growth, then it can't be static energy.

But somehow also I think that you can have static energy and not call it growth, but development, or something else like someone said before (maybe you).

What's development? I don't know. But maybe it's something like we produce 1000 widgets with more intricate decorations on them. And use no more energy doing so.

I grant that it's pretty confusing. And that's how it seems to me right now.

Thanks

kgwgk7y ago

The economy is a complex system, the only way to be sure that when you change something somewhere the energy consumption will remain constant is to put a constraint on it. You could set quotas, increase/decrese taxes to drive it to the desired targets, etc.

Imagine the system is at equilibrium at a certain output and energy usage and you discover a device than increases efficiency in the use of energy by 10%. The system could produce the same output as before using 10% less energy. But the new equilibrium won't be the same output at 10% less energy consumption, because some resources will be freed in the energy generation sector and the price of energy will go down resulting in some activities that were not economically viable before becoming viable. Maybe desalting sea water was too expensive before, but with lower energy prices and higher efficiency it does make sense, for example. You will have an increase in output but whether the new energy consumption is below or above the original level depends on the details. The latter is more likely, I guess.

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