However, I've struggled to find individual examples of experiences. Has anyone done this, or know someone who has and blogs/tweets about it? I'm curious how this looks in reality.
Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Taiwanese
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4906162/taiw...
I'm not sure how you can compare the US, which does have it's problems, but is one of the least racist (and offers many more opportunities to people that start with nothing) countries in the world to China, one of the most corrupt and authoritarian.
In China, for example, you need to include your head shot on your resume and I've known people that were told the were too fat to work at a company.
If people actually cared, they would look at the gross human rights abuses by the Chinese government.
You just don't see things like this:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/china...
In the US.
From the point of view of somebody who lives in a place with clear air and a decent paying job, I would require significant extra compensation to move my residence to a place with air pollution on the level of New Delhi, Lahore, or Beijing.
For most people, most of the time, one can have a somewhat ‘normal’ life even in the worst dictatorships, even in the middle of active war zones.
Having an American passport is a tremendous asset because you can just leave for the most part, unless you get caught up in politics, for some reason (a small risk for most people if they don’t go out of their way to draw attention).
I spent quite a bit of time in Nicaragua which has an authoritarian communist government and on the surface, it seems like any other Central American country. I’m sure I’d notice more problems if I got political, but just being there exploring for a month or so, it seemed okay.
Mostly depends on what you want out of your career but speaking as someone that lived in China and worked in Chinese tech companies for seven years, including being the first foreign hire for a large mobile games company, it’s not something I’d recommend mid-career. Maybe just starting out or if you can be hired into a c-level role.
There won’t be a bamboo ceiling and your assertiveness won’t be seen negatively as aggression [1]
1. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/05/study-of-...
There is no such issue when working for international or western companies and/or startups. Also a local mobile games company is not a good example to generalize with since games industry is known for being pretty horrible here. Internationally as well.
While there are some things many westeners might find annoying, there are lot of good things as well. For example income tax and living costs are very low. I moved from Europe to China to work in software engineering and my living standards have increased significantly.
You can make wonderful friends and the average Chinese is a decent, hard working person. Still, the level of mistrust throughout the society, for very obvious historical reasons, means people keep to themselves. You have to work 2-3x as hard to build brand and reputation. This coming from someone with 5 start ratings and laudatory comments in all our reviews.
And as for the "traction" techniques, quite common in US based startups. Almost none of them work so marketing and demand generation is a long, slow painful effort. Generally, they are in the historical economic cycle where they seen the "value" in an iPhone X. Services to better their lives, other than primary school education, not so much.
Disappointing to say the least as the need for career upgrades/polishing is huge. As someone once said to me, and it took time to really sink in...Just because they use the latest cellphone you do, doesn't mean they think in the same way. Truly the logic here is more convoluted and less linear. Hard to explain.
I love the adventure aspect, not sure I would do it again.
>of Chinese descent and speak the language
What about westerns who speak mando? Is it workable or still too much of a culture shock? Is racism abundant?
The startup culture is similar but the difference is most companies expect you to be putting in OT and weekend hours almost as a default. The idea of burnout prevention hasn't caught on, at least in my experience.
Also the dev practices are different as well, things that won't translate well if you'd like to bring your skills back.
Is it a regional norm around you to refer to Mandarin as "Mando?" Never heard of this in my life...
For example:
- pollution can be a big problem.
- if Chinese company, work culture can be very different. More top down, longer hours etc.
- noisy. Most places you go in big cities you are surrounded by noise. Cars, people, construction. It doesn’t end.
- I find the general quality of things to be lower. Buildings are poor quality generally. Side walks aren’t as maintained. A lot of things look nice from a distance only.
- internet obviously. Things are blocked and vpn can be flaky.
- many every day things will be more difficult. Banking, medical care etc. On the other hand many things are also much more convenient. Food delivery, transportation (unless you want to drive yourself) etc
There are pros too of course. You get to learn about a different culture and language. You’ll be relatively wealthy compared to most people there. It’s really easy to meet new people.
In the end I’d say move there if there is a good reason: Higher salary, better opportunity you wouldn’t normally have or if you just want a change / adventure AND you can live with the cons, at least for a while.
Especially if you are young and educated in the west, here are the things to consider:
- It is not very hard to find a STEM job in the west, and the pay is good.
- Your parents are healthy now, not much to worry. It's better to get a green card before they get old.
- You may start a family soon. It is much much easier to raise a child in the west.
parent age and green card -- how do these two things relate to each other?
This would already be a showstopper for me. I have spent a week in Mumbai and never want to be in such an environment again.
PROS: a) Salary is high, especially if you get to work in finance/insurance/luxury retail fields b) disposable income (aka savings) is extremely high as income tax is low, no more than 17%, also, no capital gains tax! c) great hub to work and explore Asia
CONS: a) IT jobs (development mainly) aren't that exciting as they are mostly outsourced to cheaper countries so you ended up being a lonely team member in HK or in management type of jobs. There's always exceptions to this (Credit Suisse, Lalamove, Chengbao to name a few) b) tech is lagging behind in all aspects, from testing to devops. For example; Continuous Integration I'm yet to see a team in mid to large companies effectively having and respecting the build. This can be seen as an opportunity if you are willing to try. c) You work longer hours, more stress and generally fewer vacation days
However, if you come here to work as a founder to be closer to Shenzhen (factories), you also reap the benefits of an established legal system in Hong Kong. Plenty of highly motivated fresh graduates as well.
I doubled my pay by coming back home.
Moreover, Shenzhen is one of China's tech capitals while HK is mostly finance.
Money vs. experience, it's really tough for me to figure out what's more important.
https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-...
> no foreign person can own stock in a Chinese domestic company not already listed on a stock market. So any such option or stock transfer is void from the start. Foreigners are not permitted to be shareholders of Chinese domestic companies, nor does China recognize the concept of nominee shareholders.
The short answer is the west was seduced by access to the Chinese market and was willing to do one-sided trade deals to get that access.
How is it when adjusted for cost of living though?
Assuming living in a Tier-1 where the tech-hubs are (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen), rents for a 2/3 bedroom apartment somewhat centralish (these are vastly larger, more populous, and higher density than most American or European cities) will be at least USD 2000, possibly 4000 depending on taste (apartment, not house). Pension may need to be privately paid, and tax-band will be above 40% for anything that can support the above. Purchasing equivalent consumables like food and eating out western-style will be the same or double than the cost in most of the USA. If with kids then international schools are pretty expensive in China, over USD 20k per kid per year. International driving license not hard but car questionable as the above Tier-1 cities have restrictions / waiting lists / lotteries on license plates.
Cost-of-living adjustment is only relevant if: no kids, no pension, able to adapt to eat locally (quite hard for a lot of people especially when hitting the ground with a full time job), don't mind a 30-60+ minute subway commute (cheaper rents).
Real Estate prices in the best areas of Beijing can easily top $1,000 a sq. foot to buy an apartment (though there may be an inversion in rent). Comparable cars are more expensive. Consumer goods are about par. Education for kids can be expensive.
Food can be cheaper in China. But a western quality life in a first tier city will not be all that cheap.
Right away, he lost a lot of weight because he didn't like the food. Too many things he would never consider eating but he had to eat something. I don't know if it's the area he was in but he is still too thin today.
They divorced because he met a Chinese girl and married her. I don't recall the details--it might be a cultural thing--but it sounds like he was bamboozled into providing a lot of financial support to her Chinese family. The impression I get is that he's now stuck and it's a heavy burden.
yeah well... this is a recipe for marriage disaster, people need human contact
It would like someone traveling to the US for weeks and often, decides to relocate and then doesn't like the place because he discovers most people speak English
I'm late and most of what I have to say has already been said, but I'm a bit of a different story, given as I'm Western but started my career in China. I've worked at a top 50 startup in Shanghai (Video++) and most recently at Alibaba. Given that I'm 22, and have spent the majority of my internship/working career in China I'll give my take:
- Living in China has been better than anywhere I've lived in the US (CT, NYC, ATL, SF). There's abundant food that's both very good, and very cheap (both relative and absolute).
- Not only is the food cheap, but healthy. Very little food is processed (most is prepared fresh) and everywhere I've worked we've had wonderful meal services that prepped healthy portions. I lost a ton of weight working there without even working out or changing my diet!
- Cell service is really, really good and affordable. However, internet service is quite bad and no amount of money can remedy this. At Alibaba, we had fibre laid in Hangzhou so this is the only time I've ever experience moderately fast connection speeds.
- GFW etc isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Any reasonable company already has a proxy or VPN for you to use at work, and there are a number of good VPNs for personal use. I never felt I missed out on the Western web, only that it was a bit slower to connect (see above).
- Technology is abundant and fast-paced. You can rent umbrellas, bikes, phone batteries, etc. If you can think of it someone probably is working on the problem and you'll experience things you've never seen before in the US.
- Pollution and noise are a problem but not terrible. You certainly adjust and you do have to make some concessions i.e. I never cycled while living in Shanghai, and sometimes wore a face mask on particularly bad days.
- Transit is much better. In Shanghai and Shenzhen, the subways are practically brand new. Not only is there cellular/WIFi connectivity but they're always on time and people queue very neatly for them. High-speed rail is ubiquitous and cheap. Didi is objectively worse than Uber though.
- The work environment is quite different:
1. Management (where I've worked) has been practically non-existent as compared to the US. This might be because I do research, but I've never had a micromanager, or standups, etc.
2. Daily naps are a thing. Expect to find people taking an hour nap after eating lunch.
3. 996 is real. Most people at tech companies will work 9am-9pm 6 days/week.
4. It is expected you basically live in the office. You'll eat all 3 meals there, and spend a lot of time with your colleagues. Family time, and going home for dinner isn't a thing like it is in the West.
I'm sure I've left a lot out, but the above has been my experience in China. I'm planning on taking a full-time offer that'll put me back in China, and clearly, am biased as I think the quality of life is better there compared to the West.
Feel free to ask me any questions.
i assume this is a typo? otherwise i'm a little concerned about a culture where a 22-year-old has that much work experience, haha.
curious if you could talk a little more about the experience of finding a job in china, and what differences there might be from applying for jobs in the west.
and not sure if you have any experience with this - there's quite a bit in this thread about it being difficult if you're not ethnically chinese, but is there discrimination against overseas ethnic chinese who are not familiar with the language or culture?
for context - i'm thinking about working in china for a few years, primarily to build fluency and an understanding of the culture. i'm western-born; my mandarin is 'pretty good' but it's obvious from my accent and the way i put together sentences that i'm not native. i'm concerned that i might not be afforded the same leniency in misunderstanding the language or cultural norms that non-chinese westerners might receive.
I can't imagine trading being able to cycle or access uncensored internet for the ability to rent an umbrella.
I was lucky enough to have help from a pretty notable entrepreneur in Shanghai (a friend of a friend) who sent my resume around. The interview process is very slow in China (also recruiting happens at different times than the West) and so about 4 months and a bunch of interviews later I decided on Video++ in Shanghai.
Unlike the US the visa process is very straightforward. It works as a points-based system in a number of categories, where if you hit the point minimum (overall of 60 I believe) then you get your visa. So once you get an offer it's not particularly hard for the company, but smaller ones will certainly be more averse given the time and expertise it takes to produce the documentation to provide to the consulate.
N.B.: I'd add that a lot of Chinese companies are intrigued (not necessarily the right word) by foreign candidates. You'll stand out in the pool. So if you apply through normal means, or even reach out they'll pick you out and talk to you. It depends a lot on the company and the timing but in my experience, it's been far easier than doing interviews in the US.
Pros:
- Salaries these days in China's big cities are pretty much same or better than in Europe
- Income tax and living costs are significantly lower
- Former two combined: your living standards will increase a lot here.
- If you live in big cities, life is good and you can live really western life style
- Extremely safe and very peaceful. Street crimes and violence are pretty much nonexistent.
Cons:
- You really have to take much more responsibility. You might find your dream company with excellent salary here or you might end up in sweatshop with shitty salary. General rule: Avoid really local Chinese companies and work for international ones like Apple, Microsoft, Google, western startups etc.
- Internet is blocked (can be easily bypassed with VPN though)
- Chinese culture might be hard to deal with for many foreigners.
- Competence of Chinese developers and especially managers is really low when compared to the West
In general: It's a wild and scary ride, but I'd recommend it at least temporarily.
Do yourself a favour and go to any other Asian country where you won't be supporting modern day Nazis, and where you won't be treated as dirt by the government. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, etc. are all great options that will most likely give you a better experience.
China is that country that checked out the show Black Mirror and was actually inspired by the dystopias:
https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/chinas-13-million-discred...
This reminds me the trip to Shanghai in 2013. We were a group attending Student Cluster Competition at ASC13 [1]. The first night we arrived Shanghai, we were rejected by one or two hotels, with the reason that they cannot accept foreigners （外賓: direct translation to "foreign guests"） to stay. It is so irony that Taiwanese are treated as Chinese citizen at airports but not at hotels.
An another funny but out-of-topic story during the trip is at the first day of the competition. Team members got their T-shirts with school name, "National Tsing Hua University, Taiwan." But after the opening ceremony, we were asked to return the T-shirts soon. The new ones arrived in the afternoon with "Taiwanese Tsing Hua University" on it. But you can find that the first press release [2] was not updated correspondingly. My personal interpretation to this was that, it is safe to assume that CCP ideology is not rooted in Chinese academic people, but as they notice anything that might be inappropriate they would still eliminate potential threats to ASAP for their good.
[1] http://www.studentclustercomp.com/tag/asc13/
[2] http://www.studentclustercomp.com/asc13-field-of-ten-chosen/
But that aside, the pull seems to be China's incentives and access to local hardware manufacturing. Not just the idea of living in Asia instead of the West.
All of my work is European and I'm on the verge of leaving due to how bad the internet gets at night.
Throughout the day you've got ExpesssVPM and Shadowsocks but at around 7pm every night there's a huge crackdown on foreign traffic where even obscure sites fail to load.
It's probably fine if your work is 9-5 but outside of then the internet for foreign usage is pretty much unusable that I want to curl up into a ball and cry most nights.
Baidu and Chinese sites will consistently ping at around 40ms consistently but at night you're looking at something like 70% packet loss and 2sec pings outside
- David Ha w/ Google Brain: https://twitter.com/hardmaru
- Adam Gibson started Skymind in Silicon Valley and moved to Tokyo a few years back: https://twitter.com/agibsonccc
In some cases, this can save a lot of tax.
- product management (not engineering)
- working as an employee of a Chinese tech company (not starting something themselves)
With those caveats out of the way, below is the text of my answer to them:
"As I understand it, until maybe 2000 or 2005, there was a lack of people with specific experience in many many areas. So the median foreigner coming to China had better experience (and ability) than did Chinese people with a similar educational background and age.
As China's economy has developed:
- many more Chinese have gained that experience
- many Chinese who worked in US/Europe for many years have come back (or can be tempted to come back)
As a result, most foreigners are equivalent to a local Chinese person, except that:
- they know English very well (advantage for policy/comms/bizdev roles)
- they don't know Chinese well (e.g. hard for a Product Manager to work in a Chinese company when the working language is Chinese and most engineers and other peers don't speak Chinese well)
- they aren't in touch with local culture (e.g. don't use the new live streaming platforms that everyone else does)
- they need a work visa (only a minor issue for all but the smallest companies)
There are foreigners here [in this WeChat group] who work for Chinese companies (e.g. @[REDACTED] @[REDACTED] ) and are very good at what they do. But it's not easy.
I've interviewed at two large Chinese companies you've heard of. Both of them tested my level of Chinese early in the process. One took me by surprise because the interviewer had grown up in the US and so could obviously have interviewed me in English. In the other, I was expecting interviews in Chinese, but one of the interviews was with a data scientist and that kept me my toes as I didn't have the vocab to explain my answers fully/concisely."
Oh, and take note of the last sentence of rlglwx's earlier comment: "Maybe just starting out or if you can be hired into a c-level role." If you're just starting out, then the pace and intensity of working at an early-stage Chinese tech company could be an amazing learning experience. If you bring distinct experience that can get you a very senior role, then you will work very hard but could also be very well compensated. If you're in the middle, it's tricky due to the competitive issues I mentioned above.
I've heard this argument often, but as a someone actually living and working here, I have to say that this hasn't changed at all or at least not in the tech sector.
Local senior developers here in Shanghai and Beijing are usually equivalent to a western mid- or junior+ developers. Often you see senior devs that couldn't even be hired for junior position in the US or Europe.
Managers are often selected through relationships and connections and only in few rare cases have any kind of ability or competence for their role.
1) As far as I know, the overpaid expat days are over. A lot of Chinese have returned from long stints overseas, and they're bringing that experience back with them. If you want a good position, now you actually need to offer something unique.
2) It's not impossible, but you will struggle if you can't speak Chinese. It's funny how this working generation were all forced to learn English at school, but many of them can barely string a few words together. Depends on your industry, of course.
3) Most of your business interactions will be unpleasant. Chinese companies will lie, cheat, steal, and anything they can to sell you down the river. Most of your time will be spent watching your back and trying not to get screwed. Same goes for employees.
4) The pollution is horrible, and one of the main reasons why so many people left at the same time I did.
5) Managing teams can be a nightmare. Chinese employees love empire building, and their answer to any problem is "you need to give me more people".
6) Decisions are very much top-down, and noone wants to second-guess the boss. This means companies are constantly lurching from long periods of inaction (waiting for the CEO/ Chairman to make a decision) to mad sprints/crunch time (once they make a decision and insist that it be carried out in a ridiculous timeframe).
7) "Face-time" is very much a thing. Many employees are working 12 hour days, but most of that is spent on WeChat/mobile games/etc.
In short, would I recommend someone do it? Yes - if you can speak Chinese, have no kids and can swing a well-paid, time-limited posting (say 2 years) with your existing company.
It's an eye-opening experience and really makes you value things that you take for granted in the West.
Personally, I think how much you enjoy it will depend on how much you enjoy Chinese culture. From my experience, expats who stays "expats" forever, only hang out with other foreigners and don't learn the language, are less satisfied than people who integrate more, have local friends, learn the language, and enjoy things like KTV and hotpot. The locals are generally quite pragmatic and in some sense libertarian, in that many will do what they can to skirt laws and regulations that get in their way (which at least in past was perhaps necessary for survival in the corrupt, oppressive conditions there). So if you like "hustle", you'll like it, but if you think Uber are monsters, laws are made to be obeyed, or principles trump pragmatism, then you probably won't have a good time. Also if you're insecure about your appearance you may not enjoy it there; people can be very frank (like, a colleague might observe "wow, you've gotten fatter, what did you eat?"), and many job listings require a photo attached to the resume. Similarly people are more comfortable mentioning racial stereotypes than Americans are, so if (often well-meaning) racism bothers you then again, maybe better not to go.
Reasons to work there? The food is amazing and there's so much variety, the sheer number of people and opportunities is greater than almost anywhere else due to the population size (more people --> greater absolute number of people at the tails of any distribution --> there are some really awesome people there), and it's extremely safe. Things like delivery and transport are excellent due to economies of scale. There's also a lot of personal freedom there; the government aside, normal citizens will generally leave you alone and mind their own business, and won't e.g. call the cops or child protection when you let your child play alone outside. If you have kids there they're also much less likely to develop a drug or alcohol problem, should that be a concern; drug use is much less common there, and although the legal drinking age is something like 13 there generally isn't a binge drinking problem (maybe because the kids have too much homework).
Like bamboo ceiling is a thing in US, similar ceiling will be put upon foreigners in China, unless it is your own company.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLmaIbb13GM
I think in that episode they were talking about the Hax incubator. https://hax.co/
A "996" job refers to an unofficial working pattern (9 am - 9 pm, 6 days a week) that has been gaining more popularity. Serving a company that encourages the "996" working pattern usually means working for at least 60 hours a week.
TLDR; A protest going on right now of developers in China. ICU means Intensive Care Unit.
https://www.blubrry.com/execpodcast/20878353/036-from-zero-t...
Overall, it's been a negative experience but I don't regret at least giving it a shot.
-Even in multinational companies people are in the office for much longer hours than in the west. However, a lot of that time is on wechat, super long lunches and who knows what. -My compensation is a bit more than half as much I was making in the US but my taxes and living costs are much much lower. I can save almost as much as I used to. If you get a job in China, make sure to really understand your pay structure and tax implication. Your taxes could either be super high or super low depending on the structure. -Pollution is awful. It's really oppressive some days and you just don't want to go outside. -Chinese ability is a must. Basically all my technical discussions are in Chinese. -The 差不多 (good enough) mentality is exhausting sometimes. Even in tier 1 cities, everything is falling apart and looks like crap up close. -I have a mix of foreigner and Chinese friends. When I first came here, I was super insistent on only hanging out with Chinese people to get the "real experience" but realistically as a westerner there is too much of a culture gap. Most Chinese people that I've met are very very focused on work and their income. -Chinese people are pretty nice individually when you get to know them, but it's a different story in public. Cutting in line, shoving their way, watching shows full volume on their phone in the subway, riding their bikes into you, etc... -Phone usage is crazy here. It seems like nearly everyone is glued to their phones at all times. -Dating is really easy (if you're a man). I haven't heard this mentioned in this thread yet, but it is a big reason why a lot of expats move to China. However, I would tread very carefully. I wouldn't recommend starting a serious relationship here unless you're in love with China and are in it for the long haul. Also, casual dating isn't very common here so girls get attached very quickly. If you're planning on just dating around, you'll feel awful eventually unless you're a sociopath. -Red tape everywhere. It seems difficult to do nearly everything, especially if you're a foreigner.
I definitely wouldn't live in China for the long term, but it's been a pretty interesting experience. Do it for a year or two for the experience and then GTFO.
Across most of China the dominant foreigner is the young visitor, maybe as a student, maybe teaching English. There are also some old English teaching hold-outs, married people running F&B businesses, and a few traders (the imported wine merchant is a classic). Other professionals are rare outside of major cities and industrial areas, save occasional NGO/intergovernmental projects, conferences and trade shows. Travelers are pretty rare. To over-generalize, the type of media these people leave online is usually somewhere between "OMG squat toilet!" and "found a McDonalds!", to "selfie at [landmark]" or "[me picking up locals]".
I've done my time: 18 years here, and only hospitalized for salmonella three times! About half-way through I went back to the west for 2 years, then came back to China. I've also taken an extra year out. The short answer is the situation has been changing frequently. It's a lot more expensive now (cost of living), visa rules have changed greatly, the government is getting more aggressive at taxing foreigners, there are still few decent jobs for foreigners (outside of multinationals who generally fill them via internal transfer from elsewhere), and the domestic economy is in slowdown. It's a great place for hardware businesses, mostly due to supply chain. The manufacturing isn't the cheapest anymore. Legals and government are a pain in the ass.
My advice? If you want the language, you have to stay, and if you're going to stay, make sure to study a few hundred characters, and study basic Chinese history. You'll get far more out of your stay with no additional overhead after covering those basics. If you want a job from someone else, go elsewhere unless you bring experience and are in to career track stuff like management consulting, marketing strategy or some other kind of middle management where international perspective can add some value. If you want to start something in hardware, it's better to do it off-books and base yourself somewhere cheap near the border, eg. border-hopping Hong Kong/Shenzhen, or nearby in Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, etc.
Running a company here is a real grind. Everything is a hassle: government, banking, visas, lawyers, logistics, medical, education, internet, business culture/negotiations, etc. It's not cheap anymore either.
Personally I couldn't live in most of the country due to lack of nature, pollution, cold winters. I've lived in Shanghai, Qingdao, various parts of Yunnan, Shenzhen and Zhuhai. Don't get me wrong though, China is fascinating, represents and allows you to better understand a massive chunk of humanity, and has some of the best history, nature and food on the planet. Happy to answer any specific questions.
