Thunderbolt 3 becomes USB4, royalty-free (opens in new tab)

(arstechnica.com)

61 pointsyssrn7y ago21 comments

21 comments

HeWhoLurksLate7y ago

Is anybody else here still really confused by USB-IF's decisions recently? From what I can tell:

Formerly-USB_3.0 was "USB_3.1 Gen1" is now USB 3.1

Formerly-USB_3.1 was "USB_3.1 Gen2" is now USB 3.2 Gen2

The new thing, which is essentially a double-width now-USB-3.2 Gen2 bus, is USB Gen2x2"

Mix this with a new connector, and we now have:

USB-type-C, but it's actually USB-2.0 in a Type-C connector

USB-type-C Thunderbolt, which is USB-type-C plus Thunderbolt, which can then carry DisplayPort.

USB-type-C:

and probably a million different implementations of power over USB-type-C.

Dear Intel, please keep the Thunderbolt name and numbering scheme!

Thunderbolt (1) (Mini-DisplayPort connector)

Thunderbolt 2 (Mini-DisplayPort connector)

Thunderbolt 3 (uses USB-Type C)

Theirs is so much better.

Edited more than once for formatting.

TylerE7y ago

Disappointed, but not confused. The USB team has consistently screwed the pooch so it’s not surprising when they do it again.

Leace7y ago

I've been using Thunderbolt 3 for years now (through Dell's TB16 dock station and XPS 9350) and have mixed feelings about it. It's definitely cool to connect only one wire and have everything plugged in but it leaves much to be desired in practice.

For example, currently the dock frequently disconnects and reconnects itself on OS start. I've reproduced it on Windows and on Linux. Another thing is that the connector is kind of brittle. I get it that now everything goes through it but sometimes touching it by accident (e.g. when putting a glass of water) disconnects everything once in a while. Sometimes the USB 3.0 part of the dock doesn't start. Requires powering the entire dock off and on again. Again, reproduced in Windows and Linux and over several iterations of the hardware (both the dock and my laptop). This is just a couple of issues I've got now, it was worse before.

What started as a nice idea doesn't work for me in practice and I'll be sure that my next computer will be just a regular PC keeping the setup boring and simple.

I'm wonder what are your experiences with Thunderbolt 3 in daily usage? (if possible please mention your setup).

wslh7y ago

Using Dell XPS 13 (9365) and Dell TB16 in Windows with three monitors. My experience is great except for months where USBs were not recognized and I couldn't use the dock because I couldn't use the keyboard and mouse. I assume the problem was fixed after some drivers/firmware updates. I continue to see some issues that I can tolerate.

I love the vision of the Thunderbolt technology because you can have a standard way to switch your notebook to a desktop mode using a single cable but at the same time it is clear that Windows and Windows based notebooks live in "no man's land", there is no good integration and nobody to blame about the hardware and software integration.

I imagine in the future you can have good eGPU support and may be additional processors.

Leace7y ago

Thanks for sharing your setup & experience!

mixmastamyk7y ago

I've a similar setup and no problems. Perhaps try updating the firmware, and reseating the connections. If there are still problems perhaps some parts need to be replaced.

Leace7y ago

I just checked and I do have the latest firmware for both the laptop and the dock. The issue still persists.

What is your motherboard version? Mine is A03. I had the initial one replaced. (I also replaced TB15 that was a total failure)

1 more reply

Matthias2477y ago

I found the title a bit misleading. It suggests that USB4 might get a synonym for Thunderbolt 3. But it seems more like the technology will get incorporated to a certain extend into USB4.

As long as it hasn't been exactly specified what gets included, it is probably too soon to assume that USB4 will always be compatible with Thunderbolt3.

MR4D7y ago

HA! They followed my naming convention !! ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19258939 )

Ok, that's probably just a coincidence...but still. :)

yssrnOP7y ago

The funny thing is that "USB4" doesn't have a space in the name while "USB 3.2", which they just rebranded everything else as last week, has a space. It has to be some kind of magnificent troll.

MR4D7y ago

It's almost as if a secret RS-232 spy got onto the naming committee and is doing everything possible to derail the standard and bring back the parallel port.

1 more reply

robbiet4807y ago

Marco Arment is going to have a fit on this week's ATP.

ksec7y ago

If only they could mandate the use of USB-C Connector with a certain level of quality assurance. Otherwise we might get another renaming.

USB 3.0 -> USB 3.1 Gen 1 -> USB 3.2 Gen 1 -> USB 4.0 Gen 1

And we might end up with USB Type A Cable that only support USB 4.0 Gen 1.

ris7y ago

So... USB4 will be hideously insecure by default?

bjoli7y ago

Is Thunderbolt worse than USB??!

Edit: my god. It is just like a hot-pluggable PCI. DMA for everyone!

linksnapzz7y ago

IIRC, Firewire had/has the same issue; DMA from whereever you please...this was known years ago, but I guess this is a hard problem to solve for high-bandwidth low-latency IO devices....

wmf7y ago

Yeah, last week's discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19256514

jakeogh7y ago

All I want is better PoE and a smaller ethernet jack. This chatty always-polling usb stuff is... ugly.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

21 comments

HeWhoLurksLate7y ago

Is anybody else here still really confused by USB-IF's decisions recently? From what I can tell:

Formerly-USB_3.0 was "USB_3.1 Gen1" is now USB 3.1

Formerly-USB_3.1 was "USB_3.1 Gen2" is now USB 3.2 Gen2

The new thing, which is essentially a double-width now-USB-3.2 Gen2 bus, is USB Gen2x2"

Mix this with a new connector, and we now have:

USB-type-C, but it's actually USB-2.0 in a Type-C connector

USB-type-C Thunderbolt, which is USB-type-C plus Thunderbolt, which can then carry DisplayPort.

USB-type-C:

and probably a million different implementations of power over USB-type-C.

Dear Intel, please keep the Thunderbolt name and numbering scheme!

Thunderbolt (1) (Mini-DisplayPort connector)

Thunderbolt 2 (Mini-DisplayPort connector)

Thunderbolt 3 (uses USB-Type C)

Theirs is so much better.

Edited more than once for formatting.

TylerE7y ago

Disappointed, but not confused. The USB team has consistently screwed the pooch so it’s not surprising when they do it again.

Leace7y ago

What started as a nice idea doesn't work for me in practice and I'll be sure that my next computer will be just a regular PC keeping the setup boring and simple.

I'm wonder what are your experiences with Thunderbolt 3 in daily usage? (if possible please mention your setup).

wslh7y ago

I imagine in the future you can have good eGPU support and may be additional processors.

Leace7y ago

Thanks for sharing your setup & experience!

mixmastamyk7y ago

I've a similar setup and no problems. Perhaps try updating the firmware, and reseating the connections. If there are still problems perhaps some parts need to be replaced.

Leace7y ago

I just checked and I do have the latest firmware for both the laptop and the dock. The issue still persists.

What is your motherboard version? Mine is A03. I had the initial one replaced. (I also replaced TB15 that was a total failure)

1 more reply

Matthias2477y ago

I found the title a bit misleading. It suggests that USB4 might get a synonym for Thunderbolt 3. But it seems more like the technology will get incorporated to a certain extend into USB4.

As long as it hasn't been exactly specified what gets included, it is probably too soon to assume that USB4 will always be compatible with Thunderbolt3.

MR4D7y ago

HA! They followed my naming convention !! ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19258939 )

Ok, that's probably just a coincidence...but still. :)

yssrnOP7y ago

The funny thing is that "USB4" doesn't have a space in the name while "USB 3.2", which they just rebranded everything else as last week, has a space. It has to be some kind of magnificent troll.

MR4D7y ago

It's almost as if a secret RS-232 spy got onto the naming committee and is doing everything possible to derail the standard and bring back the parallel port.

1 more reply

robbiet4807y ago

Marco Arment is going to have a fit on this week's ATP.

ksec7y ago

If only they could mandate the use of USB-C Connector with a certain level of quality assurance. Otherwise we might get another renaming.

USB 3.0 -> USB 3.1 Gen 1 -> USB 3.2 Gen 1 -> USB 4.0 Gen 1

And we might end up with USB Type A Cable that only support USB 4.0 Gen 1.

ris7y ago

So... USB4 will be hideously insecure by default?

bjoli7y ago

Is Thunderbolt worse than USB??!

Edit: my god. It is just like a hot-pluggable PCI. DMA for everyone!

linksnapzz7y ago

IIRC, Firewire had/has the same issue; DMA from whereever you please...this was known years ago, but I guess this is a hard problem to solve for high-bandwidth low-latency IO devices....

wmf7y ago

Yeah, last week's discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19256514

jakeogh7y ago

All I want is better PoE and a smaller ethernet jack. This chatty always-polling usb stuff is... ugly.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse